No communication from Blizzard is the worst part


#55

@Troceron

Just because the game has differing timing windows and is asymmetrical does not mean that the game is well proportioned. Hell, not being proportioned is already established as imbalance, but to be so severely out of proportion due to a confusion of game design philosophy (the sound establishment to my point that you have done nothing but dodge this whole time) is nothing more than unforgivable stupidity. A disgrace to the quality values of competitive culture.

You start with an irrelevant argument and then move in to lying about what I said about Ancient Protectors. I never said anything about them NOT being ranged when in fact I talk about their range quite clearly in the post you obviously didn’t read.

More of your trolling twist of people’s words, however… it’s insane to think you even read half of the words written as it is.

You like to talk about downvotes while we argue on an upgraded forum format that doesn’t allow downvotes.

And doesn’t allow downvotes for good reasons related to threads just like mine little buddy…

Yes, omg it’s actually true… people in general don’t like to be put in a realistic place.


#56

Since all trees have a melee attack, even the ancient protecter, we can capture the original quality vision that was had in starcraft and shift the protector over to being unlocked by the AoW but simply not allow it to achieve its missile capability until huntress hall. The melee warrior role becomes achieved.

That is the post I was referring to. You wanted the Protector to be a fill in as an early game melee unit that walks around at regular speed.

I’ve illustrated how the current meta works and why it doesn’t work in it, nor is it changing what is already defined by top level play. What you have is a tower that is expensive in wood posing in the role of your basic grunt; who can root at night for a ranged attack.

Night Elves don’t need this type of role filled. Protectors are costly in wood. Huntresses already fill a melee-requirement gap. Heroes and their abilities fill in the rest.

This concept creates more confusion by asserting that a wood-heavy tower should be a melee warrior type unit for a race that traditionally has low wood-gathering capabilities. Where is the strategic viability for such a unit? Worst yet, it’s even more difficult to balance for the fact that Ancient protectors cost no food.


#57

You’ve established the huntress as the viable melee equivalent but you have not said anything about the missile equivalent which would be the ballista which comes with equally as much aggression inferiority and feeding potential as the archer…

Establishing the “wood-heavy tower” as you call it as a melee warrior is not a confusing element of disproportion

It is rather an asymmetrical matter and according to you, the game is suppose to be asymmetrical

My point exactly…

You see… you like to talk about how the game should not be proportioned on the argument of asymmetry

But you don’t say anything about how the game should be asymmetrical…


#58

Personally, I don’t see the assymetry involving towers as a part of the equation. They are not units no matter how you look at them, so factoring them into the unit comparison is itself confusing. Making protectors act more like units has no bearing on competitive play, who don’t rely on having proportional assymetry. The game is not imbalanced due to any lack of a ‘Strong melee warrior’ unit for NE. Ancient protectors are towers, and promoting them to unit status while incorporating your night/day ideas would just be a spin on tower rushing. It’s not a standard way to play the game by any means.

If we dissect the Orcs, we can see they are missing a Magic-splash air unit too while Undead have two. Yet they don’t need it because they are balanced around not needing it to excel in late game. They have other ways to siege and counter melee. That can be equated to the Night Elves lacking an early game melee unit.

But i will withdraw my comment about no one supporting your ideas. It looks like @DeathlyGod likes your posts, so maybe you two have ideas to share.


#59

The game has already confused unit producing buildings with units to establish a races uniqueness

I’m simply taking a building that does not produce units and leaning it more towards unit behavior

You see that? that’s called a sound and balanced thought process… with out any need to get technical or wordy…

But once again, we haven’t even touched on the matters for how and why the design philosophies between the games have been confused.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think that there was a lot more evidence that showed the inferiority of night elf than the inferiority of zerg.

And we all knew/know that zerg was and is inferior.

When you take that in to consideration you realize that there is a problem with a point here…

Otherwise you’re insane…

My greatest design idea achievements call for a zerg rework

And that’s not even what I’m asking for here in regard to night elf…


#60

Fundamentally, ‘twisted mirror’ design =/= gameplay balance.

But I get it. I felt the same way 17+ yrs ago when I first saw Starcraft’s design and I felt everything needed to be ‘conceptually balanced’. I couldn’t fathom that the Terrans had no true melee unit, and that they were the only race with Concussive type damage. Perceptively, I thought this made them weaker than the rest. Marines are weak and have weak support from Concussive damage Vultures and Firebats.

We can conceptually look at Lurkers as a means of base defense. They have long-ranged splash damage AND they’re invisible! They can take out dozens of marines in seconds. They counter all infantry types and are hard countered by long-range siege or air units with detection. But that is only what this unit is on paper. With micro, 3 marines can take down a lurker by splitting and dodging the Lurker’s attacks. This became a strategy adopted by many Terran players, countering lurkers through the use of micro rather than bringing a ‘hard counter’ unit like Air or Siege Tanks. The Terrans are not balanced based on all their units, they are balanced based on the maximum potential of their strongest units; in this case the lowly Marine in the hands of a highly-skilled micromanager.

That is what the real game is about. Micro and macro. Skill of players. Pros defining the meta and the overall balance of the game on a level that many of us can not simply capture on paper. That is why examples of X unit has better stats than Y unit will never be effective examples of balance in the game, and ‘X race does not have Y unit’ will not satisfy any ‘core design confustion’ because simply said, the game does not play the way you think it does.

What you perceive as insanity is simply a desire for the game to be conceptually mirrored, like Rock Paper Scissors. The problem is Rock Paper Scissors is not a ‘Real Time Strategy’, and if you add in a human element where Scissors can cut Rock if you act fast enough (ie Marines beating Lurkers using micro), then your concept of ‘twisted mirror’ doesn’t actually apply.


#61

This really has nothing to do with a mirror what so ever…

This has to do with the fulfillment of sacrifice with proper significance…

Don’t you ever remember phrases output by the higher skilled starcraft players of its time such as…

“Don’t make units unless you are going to use them”

If this wisdom was so important then think about what the consequences are if sacrificing units is a staple of your function?

If the wisdom holds truth and it definitely does, then the phrase

“don’t SACRIFICE drones or wisps unless you are going to use them”

Would be an established fact…

Now also knowing that “The best defense is a good offense”

Sacrificing workers for defense structures is a complete and utter conflict to the soundly cultured memes as presented…

For these two phrases to co-exist in the game would suggest that viable play of night elf or zerg is to simply never make defense structures…

But that is completely impossible, therefor proving my point as entirely accurate.

Everyone knows that zerg never had the overmind or the swarm

Yet the swarm and the overmind are obviously the philosophy of zerg play… this most certainly established when things start to get sacrificial…

“For the overmind” “For the swarm”

Now everyone sees that night elves have trees…

That the philosophy is of the trees…

“For the trees”

Wisps sacrificed for trees

No one can say that the night elves lack trees like zerg lacks the overmind/swarm

But that doesn’t mean that the philosophy has been properly/completely implemented


#62

You are completely misinterpreting the context of this statement if you are using it philosophically to describe the sacrifice of Wisps to turn into trees.


#63

NO… you listen to the the sound reality of the reasoning and listen well

If not making units unless you are going to use them is a significant wisdom and it is…

then the sacrifice of units would render the necessity of a useful outcome entirely the more important

Meanwhile also knowing the parallel axiom of “the best defense is a good offense”

Would imply that it is entirely unnecessary for either night elf or zerg to ever have to make defense

But this is 100% in fact not the case

Therefor all the proof anyone needs to establish a broken game

And I’m not exactly talking about wisps turning to trees

See? you keep trying to perceptually twist and put words in my mouth

I’m talking primarily about the sacrifice of wisps for ancient protectors (defense structures)

Knock Knock

Anyone home for the last 17 years?

Nope! the light is on but nobody is home…


#64

I’m trying to understand. What is supposed to be the idea with ancient protectors and wisps? I tried reading his other thread and it was incomprehensible moon scribblings.

There’s nothing wrong with wisps being sacrificed to create buildings. Its just balancing a tree of lifes upgrade time / lumber production and adding 60 gold cost to a building. In general it just means an ancient protector costs 195/80 instead of the 135/80 up front. That’s the same with all NE buildings, they already have the 60 gold cost of a wisp factored in.

A melee ancient protector would be absolutely useless with its uprooted movespeed. Why would anyone get in range of it?


#67

Well jay wilson did get fired. It would be interesting to see how much of a lifeline pete stilwell has left before he gets fired as well.


#68

Jay Wilson is still at Blizzard. Hes working on secret projects


#69

Yes, but he got fired from diablo. If pete stilwell gets fired from warcraft, we might get a developer who will solve the problems.


#70

They patched recently and a bunch of disconnect issues were resolved. They are still fixing things as we speak.


#71

But he doesnt solve all the other issues he creates, and with every single patch he makes, theres new issues on top of them. I didnt have this many problems with the game before pete stilwell put his hands on Warcraft 3.


#72

You dont even know what his job is and you want him fired.

He is Senior Producer on the classic games team. A Producer manages schedules and makes sure the team run smoothly so that the game comes out on time. He doesnt make patches.

Maybe you should just stop requesting people get fired until you acrually know who does what instead of pointing at whoever you know and blaming them.


#73

Yes, and he failed his job miserably.


#74

Except for the part where he stayed on a bit during Reaper of Souls development, was shifted to Titan, and also Legion as well before retiring to move with his family and start writing.


#75

For the record, I have proposed that it would now require 3 wisps to come together and sacrifice themselves to make the ancient protector if it were to receive the melee warrior quality classification, if but by day time exclusively.

the cost value and time production value of the additional 2 wisps would however be taken off of the current production and cost of an ancient protector

This would help to keep the idea from getting too ugly with potentially mass armies of ancient protectors

Wisps are already set up with harvesting function to implement this idea with perfect smoothness (streamlined harvesting) where as drones do not harvest in that way

This promotes everything for the quality of e-sport culture in terms of aggressive play style

1 or 2 proxied ancient protectors that produce quite quickly… (with amp damage to constructing buildings still in place as much as I personally do not like this factor for the sake of e-sport entertainment)

And the opportunity to run them back home after harassing the opponent during the day time with out losing them

It’s a promotion of quality e-sport aggression as a win win…

And it also restores all our hope in the possibility that blizzard is not brain dead

Principle: If sacrifice is made to produce defense structures, then take the sacrifice to the next level and render it with definite offensive potential

Starcraft is a different game however where defensive elements don’t naturally exist which is why the right implementation is a thematic utility tool

The fact that the sunken is unlocked by the spawning pool is a conflict in two ways

First, the spawning pool represents offense and possibly the thematic utility tool aforementioned comparable to a barrack or a gateway (Bunker, Shield battery)

2nd, if the sunk is unlocked by the pool, it suggests a defensive nature to the zerg race

Simply with the current zerg design alone, establishes a clear warcraft 3 concept in starcraft that should not be there… (defensive nature)

I don’t personally think that defense needs to be taken out of the game for zerg… the sunk should just be moved over to the evolution chamber and more properly used in team fights rather then 1v1s

Bonus:
I’d also like to note that I don’t pride myself on the specifics or technicality of my diablo 3 ideas/thoughts but since they are making another diablo game I figured that I would take my shots at that one while the shotting seems to be good…


#76

What… more proxy ancient protector = good for esport? Are you trying to bring protoss in war3? The idea is terrible. And NE doesnt need more power, you dont know what you are talking.

This has to be a troll, hard to think of someone posting this seriously… are you high?