Issues With Mountain King Clap Effect

General Discussion
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Night Elf seems to be struggling vs HU this patch.

It seems tier 3 HU annihilates tier 3 Elf. With priests that heals during battle, inner fire, and HU heroes, it is currently difficult to do anything as Night Elf this patch.
Mid game already favors HU with rifles countering more or less every unit in the Night Elf arsenal.

I just want blizzard to watch this:
https:// clips. twitch. tv/ColorfulDullWeaselWTRuck

And hope the developers notice the current issue with HU as a race.
Moon starts with higher upgrades, more food, and uses invul and heal scrolls during fight.
At the end of fight, Moon has nothing and TH000’s units are still basically full hp.

This seems to be a pattern as even b2w commented “again!” as HU units just don’t seem to get damaged at all once tier 3 hits.
All the while when mortars, knights, rifles, and mk can each easily solo Night Elf units.

I request blizzard developers to look over Mountain King’s clap ability. Its AOE range and AOE effect (and even the damage) seems a bit overkill at the current meta. From level 2 clap, it seems clap counters any heavy melee units in game.

It’s already to the point that Orc more or less suddenly disappeared from pro scene. Orc… once the most complained race [due to blademaster imbalance] in game just… disappeared.
Clap and bolt along with priest’s inner fire (and rifles) just seem a bit too powerful now and I do wish Blizzard would at least look over Mountain King as a hero itself. It seems it’s currently the best hero in game. Single target stun kill. Mass melee AOE stun-ning effect killer. And constant lock on units with bash.

Oh also, HU vs UD currently favours HU in pro scene. I don’t know how it works in ladder but I just wanted to point that out.
I hope the knight’s tier 3 upgrade along with HU’s tier 3 orb does not change the imbalance further.
The game seems to be going like Terran vs Zerg in Starcraft 1 in the past.

HU “struggles” vs Elf but somehow always manages to win like Terran.
And bears don’t seem to deal any damage to HU tier 3 units anyway. But I’m sure you can easily notice from that video.
And it’s even worse if HU retrains Archmage to Blizzard and gets Bloodmage third for fire. In fact, at that point, there’s really no unit for Elf or Orc to beat HU in game.

A race (HU) should not be near impossible to fight in pro scene once it has its full composition. That just does not feel right. In maps like EI with limited creeping areas, HU in pro scene just camps in their base and pushes once they get their army composition.
It just doesn’t seem right. I just wanted to point that out and hope Blizzard takes a stance to add some additional balance fixes.

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May i suggest when you quote the “pro scene” to actually watch it first? HU vs UD doesnt favor HU in the slightest. Its even so bad that players like infi just straight out plays nightelf instead if he faces an ud. You can go ask some of the pro ud players when they stream if ud vs hu is hu favored, you wont like the answers though.

In the clip you showed moon has 71 supply and TH000 has 90 supply, of course human is supposed to win that. I watched that series and it was quite close between those two the whole series, this is a very bad example for your claim. And most of all this is just an anecdote. Still, i would actually agree that human t3 is slightly stronger than elfs. But elf has such a strong early and mid game thanks to keeper and mountain giants that this is more than warranted.

It’s already to the point that Orc more or less suddenly disappeared from pro scene

Lyn, Focus or Fly to name some chinese/korean orcs. There are ofc more orc pro players. But hu vs orc is actually the one and only matchup where human has an edge.

Its ur choice to think hu is op, but when you argue that publicly, use at least “facts” that are not flat out wrong.

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I can dig this new Thunder clap, since in old wc3 it was a bit weak.

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Hi AccCreate I totally agree, Human race has always been the strongest race in every patch, TH000 admits it himself during one of his championship. It is currently the only race with the “X Factor” units that overpowered other races and other races has very difficult counter play forcing them to play a certain style in order to be alive.

Sorceress - Orc nemesis
Tank - Undead nemesis
Mortar Team - Night Elf nemesis

No other races can have such claim hence Human is the most versatile race in the game.

To add to your point, MK thunder clap has no damage cap! It is not an ultimate spell, has fast cooldown, has wide aoe effect and ridiculous amount of slow. Take a good look at this video: Am + Mk + Pala vs 330 ghouls - YouTube. The damage and radius of Thunder Clap is ridiculous and extremely strong. Just imagine this is with one MK, in team games with 2 or more MK, it is extremely annoying to fight against.

The buff to Riflemen is also really uneccessary. It is the most powerful tier 1 range unit with the highest dps. The projectile hits instantly unlike other races range unit that has moving projectile. With the attack speed buff, it is the most powerful dps unit at tier 1.

My suggestion:

Reduce MK Thunder Clap radius and introduce damage cap.

Reduce Riflemen attack speed rate and decrease damage by 2.

Introduce damage cap to Flying Machine, this unit is extremely ridiculous in large team game, with right amount, you can completely wipe out the entire enemy air easily! Although there is a counter play but still wiping out the entire enemy air in 2-3 seconds is ridiculous and extremely annoying!

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didn’t TH000 lose 2 out of the 3 games he played against Moon?

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No.
NEXT 2019 Spring Playoffs: liquipedia . net/warcraft/NeXT/2019_Spring
TH000 2-0 Moon
Infi 2-1 Moon
W League Playoffs: iquipedia . net/warcraft/W-League/2018/Playoffs
TH000 4-2 Moon
Douyu Thunder Fire: liquipedia . net/warcraft/Douyu_Thunder_Fire_Cup
TH000 4-2 Moon
Warcraft Gold League: liquipedia . net/warcraft/Warcraft_Gold_League/2019/Summer/Mar_Pro
Infi 3-1 Moon

But some of Moon’s game shouldn’t really be considered much for balance.
Playing on a map with Fountain with Mountain Giants. That kind of balance cannot be generalised for every game. Using Northern Isle for balance would be ridiculous (and shows how much something like fountain can entirely favor another race in a mu)…
Healing fountains heal by % for some reason. Quite something with Mountain Giants. It’s like the Secret Valley of Orcs back when Orc vsed NE.
Should fountains be removed in competitive 1v1 map pools? Who knows. That’s an entire headache in itself.

It’s basically terran vs zerg in SC1.
HU always struggle early but at end of day, HU (Terran) beats the NE (Zerg).
It’s pretty much the story of most WCG throughout wc3.
Used to be Orc but nowadays… where’s Orc? What’s Orc? Oh wait, how can Orc exist vses current MK clap? Melee vs clap? I don’t know but the clap AOE and range and damage seems ridiculous.
There should be a cap and units shouldn’t be slowed to the point of dead in a fight. And like other poster stated, it’s way too spammable in the current patch.

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Just finish watching the NetEase Esports X Tournament - 2019 - Spring match between Moon and Infi on Terenas Stand LV, man that final battle is simply utterly ridiculous! Infi entire army was near to full hp while Moon army which consisted mainly of giants and dryads are all dead and red hp. Moon tried everything in his effort to micro away his back army dryads from the constant bombardment of mortar teams while microing his front army of giants from the constant Thunder Clap from MK and AM Blizzard. It was a complete annihilation with Moon retreating with 2-3 red hp giants!! Mind you, giant is the greatest tank unit that can absorb tons of damage, if they are all red hp, it means the human armies of gunners, mortar teams, priest, MK clap and AM blizzard had dealt thousands worth of damage in that battle alone! Just think about it man! The Night Elf player is Moon, the greatest and most successful Warcraft player in the game history and yet his army is completely destroyed with no counter play available for him, if the greatest Warcraft 3 player can’t do anything about the overpowered Human race, what does that means for the rest of us? How can the balance patch team turn a blind eye to such an obvious human race imbalance? I can’t even start to imagine what the anti healing buff to the fire orb and sunder blade upgrade to the knight in the coming patch will further do to the Night Elf race, I am really worried at this point especially for all the professional Night Elf, Orc and Undead players playing in the competitive scene.

At this juncture, I seriously can’t believe there are so many trolls who constantly whine and complain about Kotg while MK has always been the overpowered hero in Warcraft 3. Look at the ridiculous area of effect, no damage cap, the amount of slow coupled with the fast cooldown of Thunder Clap in this video: youtube[dot]com/watch?v=K64E5IHIJHE. After seeing the video, you still wanna whine and complain about a single targeted spell like Entangle which can be dispelled easily?

Take a good look at WGL scoreboard here: liquipedia[dot]net/warcraft/Warcraft_Gold_League. WGL is the most prestigious Warcraft 3 tournament in the world and look carefully at which race that has the most championship. Human has 4 championships while Night Elf only has one which is won by Moon and it took place only recently meaning before Moon, no other Night Elf players has ever won the WGL championship before! WCG is another most prominent esport event where Warcraft took place, take a good look at the score board here for the main event: liquipedia[dot]net/warcraft/World_Cyber_Games and Human race has a ridiculous 5 times world championship! Orc has 3, Night Elf has 2 and Undead has 1. Guys let that sink in for a minute. Even TH000 admitted that human race is the strongest race in Warcraft 3 with every new major patch.

My advice to the balance patch team and the people who watch live stream: stop watching and listening to player like Tod, who is a narcissist and extremely bias to the human race. He has a long history of whining and constant taunting of opponents. Many who had played against him can definitely attest to this.

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War Stomp & Thunder Clap have always been really absurdly strong skills, I think its like the developers just overestimated the positioning needs, and with the buffs to base movespeed, the ability to chain clap after clap or stomp after stomp is ridiculous. But clap seems like its just from a different game than other skills.

a thunder clap covers 3x the area of a carrion swarm. It deals 160 vs 200 damage, sure, but there’s no unit cap whereas wave is capped at 6 units affected. So you can easily dish out 2x the damage from 1 clap than 1 swarm. And instead of just dealing damage, it disables all units with a very harsh 50/50% as/ms debuff that makes it impossible to fight back or run away. And instead of a normal 10 cooldown skill, its 6 cooldown (with 5 duration). And heck it costs less mana.

Its pretty absurd that a lot of the meta in top 4v4 right now is humans smashing balls of rifles into each other’s mountain kings, and its no better in 1v1. Once you realize you can just level an MK to 5 and stack potions on him (mana, hp, invuln) and waltz into a blob of units and kill them all on its own, it really devolves the game.

There are just too many aspects of this skill that break the symmetry with other skills. Ridiculously giant area. It covers more area than death & decay. It covers 4x the area of normal aoe spells like flame strike. No damage cap, so that it can hit an entire hotkey of units and a hero and deal 2000+ damage. A cooldown so low it can lock down units in almost total uptime of disable still and pump out a sustained dps higher than immolation in over 6x the area.

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I am very puzzled, why do you always have this assumption that people who talk about balance stuff are just random team players who don’t play solo game or play competitively?

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Past tournament results do not reflect current balance.

Would work even better with pitlord and something that can heal him. Any low hp units suck against aoe. Footmens, Archers, Ghuls all die easily to stuff like shockwave, chain lightning, flamestorm, blizzard, clap, fan of knives, breath of fire, frostnova and so on. 3 lvl 10 heroes are also non existent in 1v1. On top of that, heroes are so strong in wc3 that any army without one sucks.

So i just checked that last fight and again you take a fight without its proper context. First of all, Infi had an edge and won the fights before. Because of that nearly all mountain giants already had less than 50% hp. He barely had any dryads at all, so no dmg. Infi had triple hero with pala. And ofc mgs alone struggle to bring enough dmg agains pala+priest heal. Half dead army before the fight begins doesnt help either.

I also have a strong suspicion that AccCreate and FrostyDog are the same person. Again, pls form proper arguments before posting and not ur twisted and biased misinformation.

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Of course past tournament do not reflect current balance, what the result showed is that Human race has always been the most dominant race in Warcraft 3 hence the tournament results. Many people had claimed that Human race is the weakest race which is not true at all.

Did you even watch the same tournament or a basic understanding of why his mountain giants are red hp? If you have no bias towards the human race, you will clearly see that most of the damage are done through MK constant Thunder Clap and AM Blizzard spam which Moon, the greatest and most successful Warcraft 3 player had no counter play for. Mind you, this is not a match between you and Infi, this is a match between Moon and Infi, I am sure if Moon has no counter play for it, there is no chance for the rest of us.

Human vs Night Elf match up almost always went in human favour due to human ridiculously strong tier 3 army against Night Elf tier 3 army. Moon recognise this Night Elf weakness for this patch and that is why he insist on massing dryads to end the game as fast as possible to avoid human tier 3 army. This has been the pattern and results throughout the past several tournaments. You are extremely bias towards the Human race, that is why you can’t see all these facts.

And also, your suspicion that AccCreate and me are the same person is really uncalled for.

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Terrible example.

Have you considered things like hero level, army size, tech percentage, ect in that battle.

Should fully tech knights/mortars (requires both sides of the weapon/armor upgrade tree), master caster (3 different production buildings) beat mass dryads?

Did you account for the fact that KOTG is a hero that loses effectiveness once opponent gets dispel unless he hits level 6?

Maybe there are trade offs, if NE went KOTG instead of DH, and human has enough dispel, Human should have an edge.

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Hi. I’m AccCreate.
I’m one of the best if not the best Night Elf player in North America.
And all those tournies were during my midterms and finals when I was nowhere near my peak (and close to my bottom).
liquipedia . net/warcraft/AccCreate

The one representing US for WCG is Kayo this year: liquipedia . net/warcraft/World_Cyber_Games/2019/Americas
A player I 5-0ed and 2-0ed on just ACS alone.
And I soloed 2-0ed on Hackslayer who also 1-0ed on Kayo on Gera.
I’m a player who plays this game casually (and mostly obs) but at least taken a game off Grubby in w3a against his main race and 1-0ed Longwalk when he wanted a practice game match right before vs Hunter on ACS final.

I’m also an admin on twitch stream for : lawliet, remind, checkpooh
and is “good enough” for Lawliet to take some of my suggestions seriously: base placement design on old TS and suggested a strat that took game off Happy in one of BO series.

And I am one of the admins (who also help Elf players) in Clan Gym discord which is currently the discord page for beginner/casual/intermediate skill level solo players in the game.
It’s pretty much the official discord for WC3 right now with literally hundreds of solo players.

So, @impctr, I think I am more skilled than most people here on this forum.
I stopped playing 1v1 seriously this patch as elf when I saw how ridiculous rifles and MK became overall.
The effect is pretty noticeable at tier 2 level of play. Tier 2 players like Hunter and Yange don’'t really have much of a clue vs rifles in a head to head fight at tier 2 to early tier 3.
And how stupid elf vs ud/orc now is. Orc just got shafted. UD just gets mass faeried which I myself as elf don’t see a current counter for the UD in maps like Last Refuge.

Did you notice that Demon Hunter got a nerf while HU including MK got a buff?
Demon Hunter nerf, okay. But Blizzard nerfed a lot of DH’s backbone: bear, panda. (and buffed early bears counter ==> rifles)
There’s a reason you rarely see (if at all) demon hunter + panda nowadays in pro scene. It’s out of style just like mass tanks in 1.26.
Balance patches shifted the meta.

^ This is the main issue I have with WC3 right now.
UD, NE, Orc has no real answer (if at all) vs HU’s tier 3 play in competitive solo.
HU just synergizes too well.
tier 3 human just synergizes too well.
It leads to an issue from mid late game at competitive level because of that.
Also, HU’s regen scroll is the only heal in race shops that have no limit cap [outside heal scroll which everyone has access to]. And that regen scroll is only 100 gold. Then there’s also clap which is more or less an AOE stun + AOE no damage cap damage.
The “no limit cap” isn’t really fair as it leads to a higher skill cap than other races.
Maybe regen scroll should only heal 4 units. Maybe clap should be max capped 5 with some damage cap and have its effects be re-visted.
The notion of “no limit cap” when other spells do have one in the game is quite unfair in terms of balance. At least that’s my perspective.

I do hope Blizzard looks into the issue with Mountain King’s clap ability.

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I think you are right, but maybe a small buff on bash bonus damage would also be a good Idea.

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how much pro’s play WC3 ? how much normal regular players ? This game is not for ur pro scene only. Stop cryn us an amazon river and w8 a reforged, plz.

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human has been beating elf in every tournament including WCG’s quals for the majority of the matches, and it’s been happening for months.

it’s only now being brought to light here on bnet forums cuz no offense, but a vast lot of the people here are behind…big time. i honestly blame certain twitch communities for that.

anyway, yeah clap is overpowered. 70 army being burned because clap blizz is literally too much damage. i don’t forsee clap staying the way it is.

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