How characters Should Look like

totally man,wow is awesome u should try it, and its design is very cool too
but its too different with some characters.
maiev is good example of revamping old content without changing much

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Again

Warcraft 3 itself is setting that standard. If you see him with a staff in game you cant just then arbitrarily decide its not canon because its not mentioned in novels later.

Novels only support or change lore but if something omitted does not imply it was changed.

The old god that Arthas fights in northrend is never explained. By your logic, the old god should be removed because that old god is not in the lore and reforged is trying to bridge the lore. Do you see what I an getting at here? You are looking at an absense to justify an inconsistency, but an absense is just an absense. Not everything in WC3 has to be affirmed by novels or WoW to be rendered canon. Anything that is shown or presented in WC3 IS canon until shown otherwise, and frankly not using a deer or staff is not a case to say he never uses them period.

What I dont ubdeestand is why you can not fathom WC3 itself as the source of canon while allowing any cinematic in BFA to set standards never seen before. The staff is seen in both ROC and then again in a different model in TFT. That is all the proof you need!

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Yes, they remade his model using the Archmage skeleton, which needs a staff for his attack/cast animations as well, so it’s still the same point I made about the Druid of the Talon.

This is blatantly false. Stag-Furion’s model is pretty different from the Archmage’s, from general posture, like how they hold their weapons on the opposite sides of their bodies, to having drastically different animations, like how Stag-Furion has two attack animations while the Archmage only has one that doesn’t share remarkably similar motions with either of them, something you can see if you look at them for a few seconds in the World Editor. In fact, I’m pretty sure Stag-Furion’s animations are completely unique to himself, unlike the Druid of the Talon animations he used while on foot in RoC.

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He is insulting himself if he doesn’t know the lore of the game he claims to be so passionate about.

I’m sorry he had to get the schooling from me, but if he posts incorrect information he will be called out on it. I expect everyone to do the same with me.

Side note: I couldn’t care less who he is, especially when having a debate, my arguments and opinions shouldn’t be influenced by him simply because ‘he is Triceron’.

Unless he is a writer for Warcraft, what he is has nothing to do with anything and his opinion is as worth as mine or anybody else’s.

Where did I say that?

So I am the one being arbirtrary?

You’ve gone out to say that you’re unwilling to accept any lore outside of Warcraft 3 because the game has set a certain standard so 100% fidelity should be kept, instead of looking at the whole picture and how much story has been added to what were initially just raw designs thrown into the game.

Malfurion is shown to use his hands when fighting, always. This has been the canon lore since there was ever any lore on him after Warcraft 3 outside of manuals etcetera.

So again, yes, it is shown otherwise and WoW has in fact stuck with this lore.

I can if it doesn’t go in direct contradiction with established lore.

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but if it is about the cinematic in which Malfurion turns in a bear…oh dear…are you that clueless about the Warcraft lore?

i wasnt speaking of you my good man

I promise you I’ll make a WoWified map in Warcraft III Reforged or hell even a campaign if you will stop with all those nonsense , retcons happened after WC3, WC3 lore is it’s own the game has it’s old lore with it’s old designs.

I just looked up some screenshots and this is correct. Malfurion on stag holds his staff in the left hand, the Archmage on the right.

If he is not intended to weild a staff he wouldnt have gotten this model update. We even see Illidan gettinga model update for his demon form showing progression rather than defaulting to the metamorph model in RoC, showing that the designers planned each change and werent just constrained to technical limitations.

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Here we are at the core of the issue.

You are a hardcore purist, anything outside of Warcraft 3 isn’t valid lore to you, by your words, that’s another universe of lore entirely.

I think we can now agree to disagree if that’s the approach you mean to take. I view everything it’s given to me in the Warcraft franchise as lore, I’m aware of retcons and the such and those are nothing new.

Even from Warcraft 1 to 3 there were retcons, pretty heavy ones too.

The WotA trilogy are among the first books I’ve ever read and the image of Malfurion that was painted in my mind never resembled anything close to what I was originally shown as a child when playing Warcraft 3, no goat, no staff, even the hair colour was off.

Then in Cataclysm they brought back Malfurion and he looked just like I imagined him (with the exception of the new wings, that was in fact a new retcon, but one that was meant to take place in the Warcraft 3-era nonetheless). If they intend to bridge the stories of the two games, I would encourage them to do so with Malfurion’s appearance as well, as in WC 3 he looks so much different than his description and as Triceron has said in a previous post, a character’s weapon is very significant, that’s why I’d rather have Malfurion use the weapon he is always described as using - his hands.

I rest my case.

Oopsie doopsie.

I stand corrected then, I always thought it was based on the Archmage skeleton because his animations (especially the cast animation) looked very similar to his.

completely wrong, wow lore is lore as well…
but this isnt wow is it?..
what game are the remastering,warcraft 3 or wow?

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Warcraft is Warcraft, all the lore comes under the same umbrella from my point of view, but I appreciate that others are very attached to the game’s original iteration and they don’t like how things have become different over time so they would much rather have a ‘simple’ graphical update with no revision of the story.

That is exactly what we want, also atleast 25k followers of our mod wanted it that way too mostly (I know it is nothing compared to WoW lovers)

so the people who only played warcraft 3,and know their lore, but didnt play wow or read the novels,they should suck it right?.

Do you honestly believe novel lore is set on stone?, I’ll give you a very easy explanation why this isnt truth.
Maiev Shadowsong…My second most favorite character on the franchise.
she got completely destroyed as a character in Wolfheart, by Mister Richard A Kaanan (something like that).
why? because she wasn’t needed at the moment, what happened years later? legion came,and she was needed again…all lore of the novel was forgotten. theres a small reference to it when she meets with jarod,but theres no development on it. because it isnt needed.
AND just like that,lore you know now might change in the future aswell to future fix the story. Warcraft lore isnt set on stone

difference between a fan, and this novel writters,is that at the end of the day,fans know more of the lore than the people getting paid to write a good book,which they are as stand alone…

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Is that honestly what you took away from what I said above?

lore changes, Just like they want to change the lore that was portrayed in warcraft 3… the lore you know now might change in the future…that gap will never be reached.

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I did not say wc3 was the ONLY standard. Do not confuse me for other peoples arguments. I explicitly explained how Akama being a Broken and Kael having green eyes would be acceptable changes because they are clear changes. I even said Malfurion having green hair and wings is acceptable even if it isnt WC3.

You imply that the staff is not consistent with canon because there is an absense of it in other sources of lore. WC3 and its expansion are sources of lore itself. That is my issue with your assumption. We would have to IGNORE WC3 in order to make any argument that this should changed to suit WoWs depuction

Is it inconsistent? Yes, because of omissions by the writers and for little other reasoning. The latest Mallfurion depiction happens to not use a staff. The latest depiction also happens to use Bear Form. Yet in the context of WC3, we are shown him using a staff and shown him casting spells without ever using animal forms. That is just as much lore as BFA showing us he has a bear form. The context of Warcraft 3 is important. Grom uses a banner in Warcraft 3, Thrall rides a wolf in Warcraft 3. Since there is no external lore telling us they did not use these during thia time, there is no lore conflict.

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i share your opinion…i actually said something similar with tyrande hair being green…to match wow even thou it isnt in warcraft 3 , that would cause confusion.

but a staff or a cloak covering half jaians body,isnt something that contradicts the lore

kaels eyes should be changed after he meets with illidan and he gets into syphoning magic thou…actually they could add a cool cinematic showing us that final change from high elves to blood elves

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If Malfurion is described as fighting with his hands with a staff never being mentioned it would be logical to me to assume that there was in fact no staff. It is not acknowledged, ever. Unless he has two pair of hands and he uses two to cast with his hands and then the other two to wield his staff.

This is external lore telling me that he has no weapon of choice.

Then we have cases with characters like Tyrande, when she fights, the bow is always mentioned.

When Rhonin fights, his silver sword is always mentioned. (Something which was oddly replaced by a staff in his WoW version, for some reason)

If Malfurion having a staff was something even slightly relevant to the character, you’d imagine they would say “Malfurion held his staff high and roots sprang from the earth to entangle his enemies” instead of “By raising his hands towards the forest Malfurion called on the trees to use their roots to entangle his enemies.”

He always uses his hands and never a staff.

Yes, he does in every other version too, although in WC 3 the colour of the wolf is wrong. It should be white, because his mount is a Frost Wolf, the symbol of his clan.

Yes there are external sources that not only depict him as white, but also describe him as such.

And this is even a bigger lore contradiction because:

No, it’s not outright stated that he doesn’t have a warbanner, but it’d be wrong if he did, for the reasons explained.

other than the last cinematic of Darkshore, which is the first time ever malfurion is seen in game as a melee character, hes always in-game depicted as a Range spellcaster, and the only reason hes not using a staff,is again for a limitation of warcraft…all casting animations in wow are done without the weapons.

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I never disagreed with that.

In World of Warcraft you can equip a staff even if the animation itself doesn’t require it. See: Jaina, Medivh, Khadgar, Rhonin.

Despite World of Warcraft, I repeat for the millionth time that Malfurion never uses a staff in the lore outside of his WC3 RoC and TFT game models.