For all of you aspiring map makers

[Wolfy-21430]

I think I’d have to ask someone with a legal background to check that out. If you’re right, which is entirely possible, Blizzard’s revised EULA might be legal but I’d still consider it grounds to boycott them.

Although I think we’ll have to disagree on whether self regulation works. There’s too many examples of things which go out of control, for example EA’s ability to keep getting good sales from reselling FiFa with new players every year.

EDIT: a bigger example might be the lootbox scenario, now that I think about it. Something definitely went wrong there.

[Soul-1249]

almost like they should Actually listen to their fans sometimes we aren’t just spouting crazy nonsense

[ABParker-21600]

@schadenfreud-11166

If I tell you upfront I’m going to give a piece of paper and whatever you draw on it, I’ll end up owning and you AGREE to these terms in writing you have NO LEGAL ground to stand on when that exact same thing happens.

No, this is a misconception.

EULA’s are notoriously hard to enforce, I believe they’re not enforceable here in Europe. Even in the US, just because you sign an agreement does not mean it’s enforceable. If it’s deemed to be an unreasonable agreement in court, it can’t be enforced, and this is a fact. If you sign a contract which says you have to give me 2 billion dollars if I slap you, that does not mean it’s actually valid and you’ll owe me 2 billion

[schadenfreud-11166]

@ABParker-21600

unreasonable agreement in court

True, but what’s unreasonable about this specific agreement? Your example is correct of course, that’s unreasonable. You also have to remember how the courts work, chances are Activision and their lawyers will likely push this EULA through while Joe Shmo trying to challenge it will find himself in years of paper hell.

[ABParker-21600]

@schadenfreud-11166

True, but what’s unreasonable about this specific agreement? Your example is correct of course, that’s unreasonable. You also have to remember how the courts work, chances are Activision and their lawyers will likely push this EULA through while Joe Shmo trying to challenge it will find himself in years of paper hell.

True, but assuming if it’s something like DOTA, which is actually something novel and earned a heck of a lot of money, that Joe Shmo will get a hell of a lot of backing and legal support from a company that realises giving Joe Shmo 20% of royalties will still net them money

[Soul-1249]

except that the EULA literally states it owns all your map content and will never have to pay you royalties now

[ABParker-21600]

A EULA saying something doesn’t make it legally right…

[Wisthler-1744]

@Soul-1249

Someone should go tell Nintendo that Blizzard is using their IP and start a legal action by Nintendo against blizzard because Nintendo turns into satan when you use their IP without permission.

That would be amazing, seeing Nintendo beating the ever loving crap of blizzard on court.

[WingedK-1247]

Well… About map makers being given credits for it… I really think that never happened, except if you participate in the HiveWorkshop discussions.

And owning intellectual property made on a tool is pure bs.

As I read somewhere in a reddit thread they make (or are going to make) profit by SELLING custom maps on china (btw that is the only way to add it in game’s library), which legally means that they must at least own them to do so (which also means that those products can have no copyrightd stuff, hence this line on EULA).

Also, according to this guy, they were ALSO selling copyrighted material, like those maps previously mentioned. After that report, this new policy kinda makes sense now.

After that, it seems that they rather keep the microtransaction market than giving us all rights of the things we created.

Edit: Assuming that the mentioned thread is legit.

[Tiraelina-1908]

It was always up to Blizzard how licensing with their software worked. You’re using their software and assets. Let’s not lie to ourselves for a moment. Steam has the exact same language regarding any custom content uploaded to Steam. You put your account on the line every time you put something up there you don’t own.

If you want to keep your rights intact, use software that was designed for it like Unreal Engine, Unity or whatever other engine along with DCC software of your choosing. Proceed to enjoy what you’re doing for the first time in your life because the tool is actually there to support you.

The modding tools put out by a company with a game is not and never fell under that category unless they specifically tell you otherwise. Consider how much money DotA made Blizzard just by selling copies of WC3. They’re not releasing them for your benefit, half the things possible are because of third parties. You can’t even count on Blizzard to keep their Art Tools updated.

[Bephbin-11198]

@Tiraelina-1908

It was always up to Blizzard how licensing with their software worked. You’re using their software and assets. Let’s not lie to ourselves for a moment. Steam has the exact same language regarding any custom content uploaded to Steam. You put your account on the line every time you put something up there you don’t own.

There are some very large differences from a legalese perspective, most importantly Valve does not claim exclusive right to user generated content, you simply give them a (revocable, might I add) license to Valve. In other words the IP belongs to the user whom generated the content but Valve claims the right to use it in advertising if they so choose, for a duration lasting at least as long as the intellectual property is being uploaded to Steam. The sole exception to this is if Valve creates derivative works from your content, they then own the derivative work, but still do not own the IP in general.

@Tiraelina-1908

If you want to keep your rights intact, use software that was designed for it like Unreal Engine, Unity or whatever other engine along with DCC software of your choosing. Proceed to enjoy what you’re doing for the first time in your life because the tool is actually there to support you.

While this is certainly much easier to do today, in the world of 2002/3, things were not so easy for a hobbyist. Moreover I see great benefit in this kind of setting where the developer can ground test and refine their idea before committing to putting it in a retail market.

I don’t necessarily think you’re wrong in saying that there are better game dev tools out there, but the map making scene was the perfect size for many years for minor or hobbyist game devs, or folk that wanted to make things like Anime Fight, and there’s no reason why it has to be any different other than Blizzard wants to avoid another DOTA fiasco.

[Vicis-11591]

LOL yeah, this is the last straw.

I had no problems with the whole China affair, because that doesn’t affect me as a consumer at the end of the day.

However, Blizzards rampant attempts to suck us dry of any and all money over the last decade+ has finally reached it’s pinnacle. I thought they couldn’t do any worse after the D3 launch, but this takes the cake.

This is a direct attack on gaming. This is one of the largest and most renowned game publishers, making a decision that is in no way a benefit to me, the consumer. In fact, it is the exact opposite. It is Blizzard setting a dangerous precedent that I want nothing to do with. They have no right to claim the IDEA behind any map created for their games.

Blizzard should be proud that WC3 generated an entire genre. That’s something that should go down in the annals of gaming history, and something which should encourage other developers to support the modding community. Instead Blizzard sees this as dollar bills they didn’t get to cash in.

Well, that puts them in the same bucket as Bethesda and EA. I was really looking forward to when I had the free time to play WC3R, and Vanilla WoW, but I would rather watch paint dry than support this.

Blizzard, you don’t own DOTA. You never owned DOTA, and you never deserved to own DOTA. You didn’t make it. You simply created the tools used to make it. You created those tools because you knew a vibrant modding scene would increase the longevity of your game, act as free marketing, and generally be a good thing. And that should have been enough for you.

And you know, I always knew the Activision merger would destroy Blizzard. I mean, as a WoW player it was almost immediately evident that they started streamlining the game and trying to sell it to a broader audience. Blizzard really did die back there, it’s just the company had accumulated to much good PR that it’s taken this long, and this many mistakes for people to finally realize it. That’s how valued Blizzard was, and that’s just how bad much they’ve fallen.

[WingedK-1247]

@Vicis-11591

I had no problems with the whole China affair, because that doesn’t affect me as a consumer at the end of the day.

However, Blizzards rampant attempts to suck us dry of any and all money over the last decade+ has finally reached it’s pinnacle. I thought they couldn’t do any worse after the D3 launch, but this takes the cake.

I must add that this is their commertial partner’s policy on china and, according to the post that could be untrue or exagerated, they would make profit on it.

About the idea of the map it is not “claimable”, some game devs create their own standalone games based on maps previously created on WE like warlocks and a few auto-chess/td games.

I think with this EULA they do not intend to let games like dota/lol escape from their grasp (since you can’t register a patent on gameplay) but to somehow acquire (legally) rights like stories, name of characters/habilities or even the NAME of a fanmade byproduct, since we all know that nowadays NAMES are far more important than a game’s actual quality.

[Nite-2933]

stealing from lol? What you can steal from it? It’s 20 min laning creep killing and then one teamfight. No gameplay at all, nothing changed to lol since beta.

Also same community everywhere. Just in lol you will be reported by toxics silently. Just like girls.
Also, even if dota have some unbalanced times - it’s because of great new addons or remakes which affect entire gameplay. Still best team rts ever. And greatest cybersport discipline both for players and viewers.

[Maylice-1581]

I can refund that game? I bought for custom game, never interest in their shi1ty development. Blizzuck has bunch of idiots as i thought.

[ChillinSpree-1165]

@AgentOrange-1445

After losing DOTA like they did, the SC2 changes and now this was to be expected.
Definitely look elsewhere to make custom content. At least companies like Bethesda and Valve still respect the time and effort people put forth in to creating content in their games, Blizz just wants you to make the next DOTA for them and have the full rights to it right out of the gate when it catches on without having to do anything.

They could have just hired the creators of DotA, knowing that they made a game that is more popular than their game… and it was inside of their game and made with those tools.

If someone could pull that off with a crappy map editor and generate so much hype (I still play to this day and always did in WC3) … They probably deserved a heavy salary offer. I’m sure they didn’t get one. And this is their butt-hurt reply to it instead of hiring passionate people who love games and not money.

[Tiraelina-1908]

I was leaning towards you’re only supposed to be putting things on there you have full rights to. But we know how little that gets enforced. Either way they were point man in paid mods alongside Bethesda that does want full rights. I have my doubts any of their blanket what’s yours is mine is even legally enforceable here.

That’s pretty much it, we’re not in the early 2000’s anymore. If you’re serious about making anything, stay the hell away from game editors. Don’t use them for anything beyond cutting your teeth. Unless you want headache after headache trying to figure out what the black box is doing and tools fighting against you. Size of project is pretty irrelevant. You also have full control to do anything with it.

Blizzard has been all about control for years now. Blizzard from back then is long dead. If this was more than a side project we would’ve had SC2’s system vomited on us. Instead Blizzard left enforcement entirely in the players hands. Which is arguably worse in terms of spitefulness over trivialities.

[Sintanan-1209]

Yup. Pokemon Legends is not allowed as a WC3R custom map now because third-party assets (the pokemon). See, you just have to change all the assets from pokemon to Warcraft models and names. Oh, and then Blizzard owns the map, so hope you like being slave labor.

[Triceron-1519]

The difference is now, the Intellectual Property of your custom game is also given up.

So you know how people made Autochess for DOTA2? They went off and made their own mobile game of Autochess while Valve made their own spinoff, DOTA Underlords. In Reforged, you would not be allowed to go off and take the Custom Map idea you made and remake it outside of WC3. Your Intellectual Property is owned by Blizzard. You can not call your game ‘Autochess’ because you used it for your map and Blizzard owns that IP now. You would have to spin off your own concept and detach any relation to the custom map that you yourself created and popularized.

See the difference?

[WingedK-1247]

@Triceron-1519

The difference is now, the Intellectual Property of your custom game is also given up.

So you know how people made Autochess for DOTA2? They went off and made their own mobile game of Autochess while Valve made their own spinoff, DOTA Underlords. In Reforged, you would not be allowed to go off and take the Custom Map idea you made and remake it outside of WC3. Your Intellectual Property is owned by Blizzard. You can not call your game ‘Autochess’ because you used it for your map and Blizzard owns that IP now. You would have to spin off your own concept and detach any relation to the custom map that you yourself created and popularized.

See the difference?

Yup. Just linking this to the thing I was saying before:

Even if you create your own gamemode, blizz will have certain rights on it, meaning they can build your idea into a fresh game faster than any indie dev (since they are a company with far more resources) and eventually keeping the same playerbase since it has the blizz logo.

A solution for indie devs that want to turn a mod into a career (like icefrog) is use the world editor to make prototypes, discontinue the map (leading the community to have a poor map pool) and create it again from scratch in another game engine. Luckly people will buy your game