Feedback: Graphics don't feel like Warcraft III

warcraft II art style ? Look at those footmen, knights-paladins. They did look cartoony but also not in the childish way.

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Maybe other games go that way because of WC3 and it’s huge impact on the rts scene?

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Well I think they meant more generally like all sorts of media. Movies and games do have a lot of that cartoon thingie going on, so I am very pleased with these new graphics. Warcraft was always very dark and serious game, at least what comes to its lore and story, therefor I think these more serious graphics fit too. I could even argue that it’s the color palette, shading and lighting that makes it more Warcraft, because that’s what Warcraft 3 mostly was: bright in color. I never really even got how the graphics were that cartoony. They were just blocky and bulky.

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yea the graphics look odd to me…

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I think someone stated before, it is THE CONTRAST that made War3 good in 2002.

So here’s the deal, perhaps units don’t need to look cartoony and as they were in 2002, perhaps a new realistic approach is better and required to get the game going, however both realism and cartoonny look mean very little if there no clear contrast to easily differentiate between the troops.

As Someone mentioned before ground was kinda dark and simple but units were complex so you could easily identify the unit when needed.
If both the ground and units look waay too similar, then seriously, whats the point in upgrading units look at the first place?

This is probably the major concern Blizzard needs to adress, I could be fine with new graphics, we don’t always have to have everything as it was in 2002, but please take note, it was the simplicity of the game that made it beautiful and when I saay simple I mean exactly this, contrast plus the abilty to easily identify who is who and what is what.
Don’t make the surroundings too similar to actual objects and gameplay buildings and stuff, it kinda needs to… “stick out” it needs to actually be so easy to spot that you don’t have second thoughts about whats that?
Get my point?
I think most people actually asking for Warcraft 3 graphics actually want this, can’t say 100% sure but, that’s the way I feel, and that’s why I said “keep the graphics the artstyle as it is”.
But looking more deeper into the subject I say YOU CAN experiment, but keep some rules intact.
I hope I made my self clear ^^

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I think you’re right that visual clarity is the most important thing that Reforged needs. But it goes without saying that some of us do prefer the established Warcraft art style that has been a staple in many games throughout Blizzard’s history.

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My biggest concern is that it’ll be hard to differentiate the units from a gameplay perspective.

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I agree, it shouldn’t be so reflective, I wouldn’t really say to completely remove them, since i understand why they try to make them realistic looking (ESPECIALLY the key characters and heroes).
They’re remaking the in-game cut-scenes to be more cinematic (not just the pre-rendered vids), alongside trying to put it up there with modern graphics. I would suggest greatly reducing their presence, making them more subtle.

Another thing regarding both footmen and knights - their armor should be made brighter, this is what made them stand out more in the original WC3, and it will help the new shader define the shadows, & thus the shape, better. Also both knight’s and footmen should have team colors take up the majority of the shoulder pieces. BOTH shoulder pieces.
And finally something regarding the ghouls, I don’t mind the skin color change, but the rags on the hand aren’t enough to signify their team color, especially when looking away from the camera. I can’t recommend giving them a vest or a scarf, since it would hide some ghoul-defining parts, the pants on the other hand, however, should be team colored. As far as i’m concerned that should help signify the ghouls team colors when the ghoul is facing away from the camera or doing attack animations.
All I can say for now regarding what iv’e seen of the current visuals. :man_shrugging:

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The armor appearing dark is a side-effect of metalness in physically-based rendering, which is the new material standard for games. I only know that because I studied game art. The only way for these units to look anything like they did before is to remove metalness, hence my original post.

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I think the trailer was made through different stages of development, with the second vid being the (what i assume) latest build, thus most likely the direction they are going to and working off of.

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I know myself that metalness does make materials darker, however the shader should be adjustable as far as i know and by default should’t quite turn borderline white metal into dark-grey (at least not to such an extent, thus theorizing that the base metal color in the texture used might be slightly darker as well)
Now for the following I’m not so sure, since I’m not used to physically-based rendering, but can it not just be adjusted within texture painting programs (not that i know what they use, but lets say something like substance painter)? The Metallic image going alongside the Normal and Albedo texture to my knowledge can be adjusted in the material painter and should be adjustable within the game’s engine independent of the material editor. I’m not sure how the new wc3 engine works, but it should have more metallic options than just an on/off switch.

However I do agree if the devs were brave enough to embrace the old art-style more than some modern standards, the metallic would get in the way.

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It’s nice to see someone else speaking my language :smiley: You may be right about shaders. The metal might look different as they continue tweaking the way lighting works, as they said they were going to do. I at least hope it will look better than it does now, but who knows where it will go.

And yeah, I think it would be possible to add a metalness toggle into the game. However, I really don’t see them adding such a trivial option like that.

I don’t know, it’s a shame really. I love the detail and effort put into most of the new models. I really love the new orcs and undead. But the humans are such a contrast to the other races and it doesn’t feel like they fit in. And I think it’s because metalness is just something we don’t see in Warcraft art.

I saw someone making fun of me for thinking this is a problem. Whatever I guess. Lots of people are saying there’s something not right about the humans. I figured it can’t hurt to suggest a reason why.

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I just want to add that a game can be cartoony and stylized, and pbr at the same time.

So we can have metalness and roughness on cartoony and stylized models. That would be a good option for Reforged.

cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/012/745/918/large/joffrey-ferrandes-dwarf-beautyshot.jpg?1536290701

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I didn’t mean it as an in-game option for the players, but rather an in-engine option for the creators. The on/off is already in the engine (at least it REALLY should be), i suggest that in theory, since it’s a post processing effect (just applied on certain materials, rather than the whole screen) it should have an opacity slider (in-engine) that dictates how much it overlays the textures.
But i gotta say, as a player, having the option to turn it off (in case they keep it) would be neat, especially since how far I understand they also got an old/new models switch.
Either-way thanks for the quick replies, it was pleasant discussing/chatting with you, and since it’s my first time to be part of any blizzard related forum at all i am pleasantly surprised how little toxicity there is (for internet standards).
I literally made a nametag today just so i could give feedback on the visuals and i’m glad your post was the first and top thing to pop up when i joined, since it’s a good insight. :smiley:

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Not bad, cazetta. It feels a lot like a League of Legends character which is a style I also like, although I don’t play that game. The minimalist design makes it work.

Funny you say that. The first reply to this thread was someone telling me to shut the F up and calling me a tard… They got moderated :slight_smile:

Metalness is defined using a black & white texture map. Where there’s white, it’s metal, and where’s there’s black, it’s non-metal. You CAN do grays however it’s considered bad practice for some reason. But I really don’t know the reason why.

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It has a killer art style, i love LoL art style- but depending on non-teammates (sometimes even anti-teammates) was a pain that made me stop a LONG time ago, however i still follow their YT for some of the animations and new characters they post, since it looks pretty sweet.

Also rip toxicity is alive

Oh ye that’s right, grey’s are considered bad since it may confuse the engine which one it is and potentially cause rendering problems due to that, the image itself is an on/off switch telling where it is. The metallic texture map should only be used to say where the metallic effect should go on the albedo texture. How it’s rendered is adjusted in the engine, and in fact the opacity can be edited by configuring how the metallic areas are processed in general.
You just helped me answer my own question: can they change the metallic opacity? - Yes, by editing how the engine renders and processes metallic reflections.

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I really do enjoy the higher polygon models, but I also see the point that is brought forth about clarity in recognisability, and after some consideration I have to agree that Warcraft’s style is iconic in its comic book flavour. Their argument that they changed it because so many other titles do it is fair, I guess, however they are that way precisely because Warcraft 3 made it so popular. I can only assume they were afraid of being accused of copying their successors on the market, which is a shame but is probably an undeniable truth.

On the other hand, they made that decision to go into a more cartoony style back in Warcraft 2 due to technical limitations, so they made their weakness a strength. Now, the technical limitations are non existant, and they can finally give this franchise the lick of paint they believe it deserves.

And “paint” is probably the keyword that a lot of people are looking for here. Whether it’s cartoony or stylised or what you want to call it, Warcraft has always had an illustrated look to it. They did make a great job re-building the iconic units into this new look, however they went away from illustration and paintings, towards a true plastic replication of these characters. I do not want them to completely abandon their high polygon models, because I always thought it was a bit of a shame how many sweet details were straight irrecognisable due to being mashed into the textures, however I believe applying textures that invoke the painted/illustrated feel more or to apply a filter over the existing textures as to make them appear more like a drawing will be a large step to appeasing the traditionalists while allowing the team to really make use of their new powerful tools.

On that note, I just watched wtii’s reaction video on the panel, and one point he brought up really struck a chord with me. He talked about how there’s not enough of the actual player colour on some of the models, which is especially notable from the zoomed-out isometric view. This is, most likely, due to the fact that they did try to be more faithful to the equipment and materials. In my oppinion, this would also be solved by more illustrated textures, working to use colours that imply materials rather than realistically visualising them.

I would also like to state the obvious and say this: The game has been worked on for a long time, but they did release the Culling mission as well as those panel screenshots and videos with the clear intent of putting together the earliest presentable version to the audience to spark interest. I expect a lot of polishing and work to come even if they stay the course with their current visual direction, which could very well optimise the current look with barely any actual changes.

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HOTS engine is way too cartoonish. WC3 does not need the same. I really felt in love with what Blizzard has already done. Please keep this direction.

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New graphic is fine. It is well rebuilded. I also like new militia model. It reminds me Husit warriors form Czech history. Very nice. But there is too big jump from old to new graphics. Maybe some compromise between this new graphic and an old one. more connection to old but in new way. Maybe just texture because modelation is good. Portraits - the old one were better, why do you think Dota 2 adopted them? What I also like you have much more room to see units because the down bar is less wide. I like Stratholme campaign animation the gestures are realistic than just standing in old warcraft. But might maybe be bit more upgraded to look more lively and not syntetic. Also I think that warcraft I and II should also be remastered in future. People are talking about warcraft IV. What if Warcraft IV would be some old warcraft history for example: the war of ancients or war against black empire and many other old stuff from wow universe history.

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I think that all who complain about the new graphics are simply overflowing with nostalgia, if you do not like that graphic, backward compatibility will be available and you can play the old good warcraft.
Probably as in the case of SC remaster, you will be able to change graphics during the game so there is nothing to prevent you from playing w3r on old graphics.

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