Bears are the most unique of all the tier 3 melee. Their viability relies on them using spells (roar and rejuv) to stay alive, since the night elves don’t have battle healing outside of rejuv (and tranq). Having a mana pool affects how moon wells heal them, and their vulnerability to other threats that other tier 3 melee do not have (faerie ragon splash affects them, feedback, mana burn, etc.).
Bears must shift in and out of bear form to use the heal obviously…The issue is that they get melted when in caster form…which is why bears are not a good counter to tier 1 ranged like riflemen + priest or fiend + statue…
I believe that giving the Druid of the Claw in caster form +1 armor with first training upgrade and and additional +1 armor with Master Training (total of 2 additional armor with the upgrades) would increase their viability when shifting.
The issue is that MG’s are still better than bears in every way when it comes to dealing with tier 1 ranged units…
An increase in cost of the master level training for bears would be a fair trade for the buff to their caster form!
I absolutely cannot wait until the release of WARCRAFT III - REFORGED! I want to first start by saying that I am going to reforge your head in a 1vs1 match!
Anyways, I want to respond to your, “DRUID OF THE CLAW BUFF PLEASE” request. I disagree with your evaluation of the druid of the claw unit. They are amazing. First, I want to let you know that the night elves can achieve tier 3 very quickly. While upgrading the tree of life to tier 3, the bears can also upgrade at the same time unlike other tier 3 units such as the orc tauren, the undead abomination, and the human knight. Every other races heavy ground unit has to wait until they hit tier 3 first before you can produce a single heavy ground unit. With the bears, you can start massing them up at tier 2 and by the time you get to tier 3, you can have many bears that only need the final upgrade, the, “Druid of the Claw - Master Training” so they can transform into bears.
You mentioned druid of the claw versus rifleman + priest or druid of the claw versus fiend + obsidian statue. In this example, we are not going to consider each players ability micromanage their army, develop a strong economy, or make game plans like a master strategist. Compare the druid of the claw’s attack type versus the rifleman’s armor type. Did you know that the druid of the claw’s attack type does INCREASED damage versus the rifleman’s armor type? Meanwhile, the rilfeman’s attack type does DECREASED damage to the druid of the claw’s armor type. Let’s not forget the fact that the druid of the claw have high hit points, a decent armor rating, and roar for +25% more increased damage on top of their already increased damage because of the attack type of the druid of the claw versus the armor type of the rifleman. I can continue but I think you get the point and I doubt anyone is still reading. =/
My post was way too long - anyway I’ll cut it short. I’ll accept your 1v1 challenge. We can arrange to meet in clan AG at a time when is convenient for you to test this out? I’m an experienced player and I understand armor types (I have a 91% record with just over 1100 games, and play top 50 on USEast/Northrend).
Not to brag - but just illustrate that I understand your point that DotC do bonus damage to the rifle armor type, but I think you’re missing my point…I’m not saying rifles are OP or druids are Underpowered…
I’m just stating that in order for a druid of the claw to be equal with utility to Aboms/tauren both of which have unique/powerful upgrades which act as PASSIVES, a druid is FORCED to shift in and out of bear form to maintain its viability late game…Doing so the unit LOSES ARMOR, which is why they melt faster than any other tier 3 melee unit vs tier 1 ranged. You kinda proved my point that - yes, if the druid maintains its armor resistance vs the rifleman army even when shifting, it will beat the rifles if the food cost is correctly favoring the elf…but it…isn’t…the druid loses its armor, so its not as clear cut as a bear vs a rifle. the battle is - bear form __> shapeshift -armor --> cast (assume not stolen) --> shapeshift bear form…it’s not just bear form vs rifle - -> shapeshift with armor + consistant dmg output --> shapeshift bear form maintain armor + dmg output. the druid stops its dmg, casts, and casts again…
it’s about 3-4 seconds of not even swiping at a unit…that’s a serious amount of lost damage in a high end fight where the rifle is constantly using its attack…a knight/abom/tauren are consistantly putting out high dps and getting passively healed by either other units or heroes…bears are literally the only combat healing a night elf gets…with the exception of tranq, which i don’t even go keeper on all maps vs human so take that out of the equation.
The formula is a little more complex than what you’re describing, although I understand your points.
I am just failing to see how and why you’re implying that by buffing the CASTER ARMOR of the DOTC would be broken in any way…i suggested that it would still require adept and master training alike…
Anyway, yes I’ll 1v1 to have this proven…I’d also invite you to watch a few NE players that use bears - Che (twitch is Ohreset) and Lado (twitch is ladoslounge). They’re also higher level players that I often interact with weekly…
i guess I just don’t understand…adding +1 armor increases the resistance level by what, 4%?..that’s not even with adding additonal hit points lol.
And I want to address your point about the 25% increase in damage. As a skilled night elf player, I would say roar is a very very situational spell. humans I play (I have been watching/talking to a guy named htrt on useast, who I consider a pretty strong human player) - and he gets breakers in all his comps vs elves…You don’t roar vs human or undead…and go figure, these are the two matches I’m trying to explain are difficult with the battle healing from statues + priests with tier 1 ranged that give bear players problems. Rejuv is also a dispellable/stealable spell…you do not want riflemen with roar vs your bear/dryad army.
I agree with you, they nerf bears on 15% (approx) and give riflemen for example 15% buff, so taking into consideration all information about them:
moonwells heal them in 1:1 ration (mana\hp) with increased mana\moon juice ratio, it means that if your staff hurt bear, it’ll be hurt till the end of time.
Spell breakers are pure counter to them, that doesn’t require any upgrades at all, costs less and neutralize all bear spell potential to begin with rejuve and end everything up with roar, plus their feedback works incredibly sick against them and that’s especially what I hate in this for example in WoW when druid morphs in bear he lost mana indicator and begin to use new resource-rage, the same might be applied to wc3 in order to eliminate this incredible inequality when T2 units counter every single aspect of T3 unit that is supposed to be insanely effective.
Basically that the reason why we hardly ever will see bears in the future, when you have MGs, that do tanking work just better than bears, while you can heal them with moonwell upgrade all day long (what you can’t do in the case with bears).
I think 15% nerf was over the top and completely ruin this unit, together with ridiculous panda nerfs.
Dyk guys that level 2 BoF does less damage than 1st lvl Healing spray heals?))
The only buff i would say Bears (and Talons) could use is to make the shapeshift cost no mana.
Bears already have some fantastic advantages like:
400 health heal over time
AOE damage buff
second best basic attack DPS (only knight is better and that is without Roar)
Bears are the only tier3 melee that can be made in tier 2 (in advance as Druids) and then just research Bear Form at tier 3.
You can time the tier3 bear-form-research push by positioning your DOTClaw army near the enemy and as soon as its done just shapeshift and attack (unlike other races who need to actually MAKE tier 3 melee after tier 3).
The last points are really important and powerful.
You can have a ton of DotClaw that heal and roar at tier 2, and when you do the 35 second master upgrade at tier 3 you can instantly turn those Druids into Tier 3 melee right infront of the enemy base.
Every other race has to MAKE tier 3 melee only after researching tier 3, and even then they often have important upgrades to also do (animal war training, pulverize, the new disease cloud…).
Bears are probably the best and most useful tier 3 melee in the game, especially thanks to Staff of Sanctuary which gives them a literal second life.
Their main “problem” is that Mountain Giants (with medium armor and passives) do so much better vs Piercing/Magic damage as well as Spellbreakers.
But that is an issue for ALL tier 3 melee, they just get too stuck moving around and nuked down by ranged.
the 400 heal over time has to be CASTED…there are severe disadvantages to doing this in the midst of a battle. you have to shapeshift out of bear form (assuming you’re fighting and have your bears in bear form to start the battle and don’t pre-emptively do it)…this costs DPS from the bears, and they are constantly taking hits while shapeshifting from ranged (as all tier 3 melee will be doing)…when they shift they essentially LOSE ARMOR which means they LOSE HEALTH (mathematically - resistance level goes down)…they have to cast the spell (once again not attacking this entire time) then shift back to bear from (1 second) before they can attack again.
This 400 health heal over time is SPELL STEALABLE AND DISPELLAblE which means it isn’t going to be cast vs an undead army with destros (unless you’re a noob that wants to lose the bears faster), or a human army with breaker (spell steal).
The AOE damage buff (see above - spells are situational when cast).
bears are not made in tier 2 - they are made in tier 3. The caster is made in tier 2 and the entire point of this thread is that they have less survivability than a huntress with no upgradable armor…so not sure why you’re addressing that.
“SECOND bEsT ATTACK DPS” - when you’re casting in and out of battle, the numbers are not scaling as well as pulverize tauren (passive), or aboms with disease cloud (which got a buff). They only beat the other tier 3 melee if the following occur:
they cast roar and it’s not stealable/dispellable/consumed
they are not shifting out of bear form and are constantly attacking
your next point about the making tier 3 melee after tier 3, is moot - that’s not the argument about how 'easy it is" to get the claw…it’s about the survivability of the unit in a battle.
I think people are misunderstanding the entire post and this makes me sad
Calling bears the “BEST AND MOST UsEFUL TIER 3 MELEE UNIT IN THE GAME” is really ridiculous…like…i can’t believe what i just read lol…no they aren’t.
I’m gonna re-post what i’m proposing;
THE CASTER NEEDS A bETTER SURVIVABILITy sINCE IT IS A MUST SHIFT UNIT - TO WHICH CASE IT STOPS BECOMING A TIER 3 MELEE UNIT). yes, rejuv is a must sometimes, despite the strong hard counters to it in almost every late game army (including elf armies)…but the fact is that the bear melts faster than any other tier 3 melee in the game.
wanna talk support? ok let’s theorycraft then - tauren + spirit link - the tauren does not have to cast this on himself. Knights with inner fire - knight does not have to cast this on themself. Abom with …well aboms are cost effective and disease cloud is incredible dps…
i am still shocked you called bears the best tier 3 unit in the game - the discord channel with a very successful human player is offended you’re insulting his knights like that. and he hates elf more than you will ever know.
I dont know what you are asking for here.
You are pointing out very basic things like “this buff can be dispelled/stolen” or “my tier3 melee unit has to change into caster form to cast the Rejuv”.
Well yea… that is how it is supposed to be.
Do you want Roar and Rejuvenation to be un-dispellable and un-stealable?
Do you want Bears to be able to cast Rejuv while in bear form?
Do you want DOTC in caster form to have the same health/armor as bear form?
Do you want DOTC to become 3 population or for bear form to become available at tier 2?
Do you want DOTC to become immune to Mana Burn, Mana Drain and Feedback (spellbreakers)?
Right now NElves get a free expansion almost every 1v1 and the Mountain Giants are still too strong, especially due to the free expansion gold.
If mountain giants were significantly nerfed then the DOTClaw would once again become used very often.
They would definitely be more used/popular than the Tauren or the Abomination.
The sheer versatility of the DOTC that also sports a phenomenal Bear form definitely makes it a fantastic unit.
And “how easy is it to get a unit” is extremely important in terms of 1v1 balance.
And the fact that DOTC is a caster and a powerful t3 melee all in one means that you dont have to spend population making Spirit Walkers or Priests.
Once SWalkers or Priests are done with their mana pool all they got are wimpy attacks, while DOTC can shift into Bear and continue doing good DPS.
NElf AOE Dispel comes in the form of wisp Detonate (if you dont like Driads) which costs no mana (walkers/priests gotta spend mana to dispel instead of buffing) and burns enemy mana… and due to free Expansion the gold price is not a problem.
I dont know how to balance Night Elfs, but I can say for certain that it is extremely boring how every game revolves around MGS now, prior to 1.30 you rarely saw more than 1 or 2 mgs, but now you see elves getting 4-6 MGS and its just soooo boring like watching giant gummy bears get attacked by midgets with rubber mallets
I dont even play elf I mainly play human, but I really miss seeing bears now and I think its strange that MGS are considered meta when they consume so much moon well mana and cant heal, literally makes no sense, their only good for the stupid taunt which makes microing annoying
no…nobody gets a “free expansion”. lol what level are you playing at? this is not happening on ladder, or netease - especially on most current maps. “free expansioN” is a pretty moot argument btw…if you allow me to expand i’m going to expand, whether i’m a night elf player, human player, or UD with dreadlord FE build…period. There’s no such thing as a “free expansioN” but then again, i’m not sure what level you’re talking about. it’s not happening in top 20 games, i’ll tell you right now - from personal experience.
are you trying to imply that elf has the easiest fast expand in the game? Every race has maps they’re going to have certain advantages on…Human, Undead have “easy fe’s” on certain maps in the current pool too - but i don’t call them “free”…
no i don’t want roar and rejuv to be un-dispellable - or un-stealable - they’re spells…which is proving my point - the druid of the claw isn’t ONLY A BEAR. do you understand that? they’re also high end casters…which are melee - there’s not a single caster like that in the game - every other caster is a ranged unit. So being a melee caster - yes, i think they need a little more survivability than a ranged caster…yes i do believe that.
Do I want them to cast rejuv in bear form? Not sure? I don’t think I asked for that at all? I am not really even complaining that rejuv and roar are dispellable spells that can be used against you in late game - I’m just stating that I think the caster form of the DOtC should have a little more survivability due to being a melee unit…
Do I want DOTC caster form to have the same health armor as bear form? Like did you read my post? I proposed them getting +1 armor to what they currently have with adept training - and then +1 more armor with master training - either that or allow the druid of the claw caster to benefit from Hunter’s Hall upgrades. I do not think they need the same armor as a bear no. I never even proposed that?
Do i want the dotc to become 3 population? No? Food is fine…second part of that - no…the bear is a tier 3 melee unit, they’re fine in tier 3…Never asked for that to change either.
Do I want dotc to be immune to mana burn? No? Mana drain feedback? No…I nver asked for that…but it is unique that they’re all affected by these anti spellcaster things in bear form isn’t it? No other tier 3 unit is affected by these spells… Mana on a tier 3 melee unit doesn’t really help them.
This actually brings me to another idea to have the mana bar disappear from the bear when in BEAR FORM…but also to stop the mana regeneration in bear form too…requiring you to have them in caster form to regen mana? Dunno… I just think it gets unfair that bears have the mana bar and that screws them over quite a bit.
if MG’s were nerfed then the dotclaw would be used very often? No? No they wouldn’t lol…unless they changed the MG armor type the MG is better in every way to countering tier 1 ranged…like…literally every way. They were “reverted” back to their old selves (MG’s - i won’t call it a “nerf” since they should have never touched their food cost to begin with) and they’re still better choice than bear.
Calling a DOTC versatile is pretty ridiculous.
I just illustrated above how shifting in and out of bear form actually removes prescious seconds of dps from the bear - which actually make them the worst dps output of all the tier 3 melee. Tauren are first and aboms with disease cloud are the two highest dps output on their own…a bear with roar on it without ever shifting has the highest dmg, but the other two don’t need to shift into a caster to keep themselves up, so … and the disease cloud buff is pretty damn good.
yeah aoe dispel is great in the early game and vs certain compositions (dark ranged dreadlord + necro that Sadist-Ananist does sometimes) but he’s one of a kind and the only ud player that does that in our games. ANyway - about the wisp - they cost 1 food…if you have a high warcraft 3 iq, you’ll understand that the economy in the mid-late game is VERY important. the upkeep system does not really forgive silly army compositions - having too many wisps just for a “FREE AOE DISPEL” is not always a good choice when you’re trying to stay in upkeep…or say you don’t have an expansion…it’s not the best dispel in the game - the effect is great, sure…but relying on a 1 food unit, 1 time use dispel, that you have to pay gold for, and then replace has its severe cons too.
I’m not really sure what direction your post was trying to take my point but i’ll re-visit it a 3rd time.
I just think the druid of the claw in caster form is a vulnerable one, and since bears are a tier 3 unit designed to take a beating from other units (like all tier 3 melee with the bonus armor and armor type)…shifting into a caster form and essentially losing armor while still remaining in the exact same melee position that it was in bear form - make them melt pretty darn fast. I’m asking for the caster form of the dotc to have a +1 armor to it per upgrade.
nobody here likes to do math apparently. I wish more high lvl solo players were in this thread T_T…
+1 armor on ~500hp (adept) is about 25 extra health so its not exactly a massive improvement.
It would still be extremely awful for a 4pop unit and very easy to kill.
Seems blizz wants DOTC at tier 2 to be kept way in the back as caster-only (around archer distance) without ever entering melee.
Bear form disabling the mana pool as a protection vs feedback is a neat idea, i guess the Roar (bear) could be 0 mana and have like a 60 second cooldown.
As far as shapeshifting into caster form goes you are supposed to micro the chosen bears to the rear before changing them into caster form.
Frankly that is a very common thing to see on good NElf players so i dont think that needs changing.
+1 armor per adept/master upgrade doesnt feel powerful enough but perhaps that is all they need.
Personally i like the bears have no mana pool idea more but that would be a kick in the jewels to humans who are already lackluster.
i wonder if just removing the mana bar from the bear form would be a good change or not - as long as mana doesn’t regen in bear form…not sure.
i was also thinking about it - casting rejuv in bear form also doesn’t seem too powerful…i mean we discussed how rejuv is pretty much almost always countered (unlike any other heal in the game which are direct heals, not spellbuffs…)…so that could help too?
Sure. Sorry if I sounded a bit overconfident of my own opinion, I didn’t mean to. I would Just prefer if they keep bears more unique, even in bear form. It makes the game more interesting, complex and fun imo.
Bears can use roar with pretty much no drawbacks against orc, and almost likewise against NE, right? And even against undead and human, roar has its uses, when bringing down an undefended expo quicker for example.
I just wish spellbreakers, which are better against bears than they should be imo, were nerfed Just a little, and knights and/or griffons were buffed a bit to compensate.
As someones that played several thousand games of Frozen Throne, I will say that bears seem fine at the moment.
I do not like how you are forming your argument. You are comparing apples to oranges in most cases and it does not work that way. The weakness of the druid is exactly what you mentioned that good players will be able to use as an opportunity. A BETTER night elf player will pull the bear back before transforming and casting heal, because his heal range at a small distance is safe and greater than the reach of a rifle man.
Rejuv is a massively strong ability in an already strong and versatile race like the nightelfs. Any possible changes should be carefully considered with enough player metric data and feedback before changing anything.
for one - you might have played several thousand games of TFT but for all i know you’re < 80% win rate…i have thousands i’m 91% win rate, and a top solo player. i disagree with you.
for one - my argument isn’t that “BEARS ARE UNDERPOWERED”…bears are fine.
Druid of the claw caster form is not fine, and they are not in a good spot for how late they come into the game.
being a melee caster with dispellable buffs (roar/rejuv etc), does not increase their survivability.
I won a game against a top 10 undead player tonight, he is a streamer - i went bears…guess what happened when i rejuved my demonhunter. oh wait it was used against me 100% with devour magic.
theorycrafting about micro isn’t what the argument is even about. but like i said i invited the first person that challenged me to solo to a solo match…i’ll invite you to do the same. i’ll be waiting in clan ag to illustrate my point.