Don't increase 12 for ladder

General Discussion
22

explain why its good for the game, what does it add?

10 Likes
23

It requires more actions from the player and higher level of microing even at lower levels. It makes you think more about how you group certain type of units to best use them, instead of grouping your whole army into one group and attack moving to the enemy base like in the lower leagues of Starcraft 2.

There’s no reason to change it.

25

by “more actions” and “higher level of microing” you probably wanted to say unnecessary chicane and wasted micro. theres literally no difference between 12 unit groups and 20 unit groups most of the time, because the effect of 12 unit groups only comes into play in certain situations, but when it does, its just clunky as hell.

or when you just want to move a bigger amount of units out of an area - you end up selecting over the same units multiple times.

you need to group up your units anyway - there is no way around smart grouping. if you dont group properly, you lose vs someone who does. the problem arises when the grouping gets messed up by the 12 unit limit. even pro players get screwed over by that, because its rather common in larger 1v1 armies that you just cannot fit these 1 or 2 units into the right control group anymore. so there you have your frostwyrm with your statues, or the rider in your caster group, or the crypt fiend in your melee group.

you can select 30 supply armies in one group - in your book thats fine - but selecting a 60 supply army needs 3 control groups in order to even move it. every mid tier player easily can control bigger armies with groups - its cumbersome, but it works. but new players will rip their hair out. 12 unit selection is just throwing sand into the gears. high level players will just get that little bit more of usability from that, but low level players will be able to get into the game much easier.

this change doesnt make wc3 an easy game - it makes controlling certain armies more efficient and frees up player micro capacity for more important things. remember the outrage when they introduced an option to perma-display health bars? man, warcraft 3 almost died back then, or did it? its the very same argument “its micro to press “alt” to check for health, bad players arent supposed to get that information for free” - it helped the noobs, and stopped that ridiculous pinging all over the map. exact same thing with the mana bars - turns out it made wc3 better, less garbage / wasted micro, more strategy / information. but most importantly manabars are especially great for the spectators. now we got that same discussion with the 12 unit group all over again.

no one loses with bigger or no group limits at all, everyone gains.

so to sum it up, your arguments for 12 unit groups is:

  • “git gud”, learn it or leave it
  • force players into grouping
  • it makes the game artificially harder by limiting the amount of selected units, but only for certain armies, while others can be controlled just fine with 12 unit groups

arguments for larger or no group limits:

  • game gets way more accessible for new players
  • larger armies can be controlled more efficiently
  • stops units from bleeding into the wrong group, because the proper group is full
27 Likes
26

I personally hate the 12 unit limit. I really hope they will remove it. Good players won’t use all units in 1 group anyway so it will make the game more accessable for newer players

20 Likes
27

And also, 12 unit limit it’s not a problem for some race like orcs and undeads. That’s usually human or elf issue

1 Like
28

I personally really could not care less if the limit exists or not, as I think that the the cap is not needed or useful for gameplay. With three selection groups you can easily handle a 100 supply army. I even have problems filling two groups in most games to be honest (as hu and ne). I would understand this cry for change in sc1, as you have much more units there, but in this case it would really mess up the balance. In wc3 however, there is no such thing as “it is balanced for a selection group of 12”. It is rather designed for battles with 24 or less units. So in my opinion you could remove it and it would not change a thing, only some new players would be more happy to see an updated rts in that manner. Good players will still put everything in multiple control groups and lower level players could put everything in one group and a-move around the map. I do not know how removing this cap would hurt the pro scene.
And as it is about getting new rts players into wc3 => remove the 12 units cap.

8 Likes
29

I do not agree with the selection limit removed. It should be something you can toggle on and Off for more flexibility in gameplay Some Warcraft III players work more with a keybord and some work with Shift + 1 to make groups with their units as I do, I do not wish my playing style to change!

30

How is turning this on and off flexibility? Either remove it or leave it, toogle would only be a thing for custom maps IF they are keeping it in melee.

1 Like
31

It would be flexibility in making everyone enjoying their way of gameplay. As I said some prefer using 12 limit, some would not. And I for one never liked SC2 limitless Selection.

32

I don’t think this is actually a big issue. There are rarely any situations in melee (at least 1v1 and 2v2) where you really want to have bigger control-groups (with a lot of gyros e.g.)
I think this is a feature, that would be nice for less experienced players, while not really affecting higher level play at all.

6 Likes
33

the old version is the same as the reforged, its the same engine with just more polycount and new textures. I agree the limit cap should be able to be removed/increased in wold editor for custom maps. Changing this in either the old game or reforged will result in a change for both since, as i already said its the same game/engine.

34

I must say this: for pro players it will never matter
seriusly if they removed would you ever control more than 12 units ever? I mean what are you gonna do command flying and ground units at same group? :smiley:
I think IT MUST BE REMOVED for shake of better experince of new players. it will change 0 in pro grounds and will only ease tensions for new players
again I am not even saying it should be considered. IT MUST BE! else we will reduce number of new players that gonna join community :frowning:

about toggle option I see what you guys mean and I agree… there should be a way to enable this too to be able to choose your army in quick way without trying to perfectly sizing your selection window

13 Likes
35

I hated SC2’s limitless selection.

Please make uncapped an option for custom games. I would personally like to play single and multiplayer with the capped 12 selection.

1 Like
36

Why use 2 control groups for 13 units?
WC 3 is not a “numbers game” like SC, micro will always beat F2+Attack.
Does not make a difference at a certain skill level.

Again, why 2 control groups for 13 units? ARTIFICIALLY IMPOSED
If i wanna use 13 groups for 13units I can… why not 1?

9 Likes
37

I really wonder if you really know if he never joined a tournament or not :slight_smile: because assuming he didnt can be terrible mistake

38

i think this is a nostalgia thing more then it is to make the game be better for everyone only thing i want is to remove the 12 unit limit and thats it!
i have friends that wont buy the game if that 12 unit limit still is in the game aswell so thats gona be less fun for me

i dont mind if they make a classic option and a modern option for those with nostalgia for 12unit limit in tournament and all that aswell as a modern version if by removing the 12 unit limit will open up new strategy aswell and its not fun to force many unit to follow the hero while you move 12 other unit this 12 unit limit force more apm out of people with the 12 unit limit gone you even help people that almost get inflammation in their arms

this is just a closed minded nostalgia fight

6 Likes
39

12 unit cap should be gone. why compromise with toggle on/off? the 12 unit cap is one huge compromise in itself and has no purpose except for fitting your unit selection on a 19" 4:3 monitor.

ppl who only want 12 units in their groups can just select and group 12 units and let others enjoy the freedom of barrier free unit selection.

9 Likes
40

Guys, I dont want to ruin your party, but I think the limit of 12 units it’s because of the formation. Melee units go in front, ranged behind and catapults behind those.
I dont know if that mechanic would work if they increase the unit selection withouth causing problems with that and pathing

41

ok tell me what happens if I recruit 8 ranged and 4 melee :stuck_out_tongue: do 4 of 2 of ranged units go in front range :smiley: (if so yea another reason to fix XD)

42

removing 12 unit limit wont ruin the game at all!
that is the nostalgia talking!
removing it will open it up for more players to enjoy the game
custom games will be even better
but for people that want 12 unit limit they should get a classic toggle on and off

and we are not talking abut the food limit
and its not hard to manual choose melee unit to walk infront of ranged

3 Likes