AT vs RT needs to stay- here's how to fix it

There are dozens and dozens of team based online mutiplayer games out there. Nearly all of them match groups and solo players into the same queue, and in most cases, this is done totally without issue or complaint. Warcraft III is the rare exception.

The issue players experience in the game, which is totally understandable, is the groups solo players tend to meet are usually much higher in skill level in multiple ways- mechanical skill, game knowledge, and coordination. But not all groups are highly skilled players, and you can easily see this to be true in any other multiplayer game. So why is Warcraft III special in this regard? I’ll tell you.

Warcraft III’s ā€œArranged Teamā€ system is fundamentally flawed.

It is not simply that grouping has advantages. Warcraft’s team system is set up in such a way that basically forces people who enjoy playing together to ā€œsmurf,ā€ or misrepresent their skill level to the matchmaking system- both intentionally (abusively) and unintentionally (just by the system being defective).

Most other multiplayer games simply have players form a party and queue together. That’s it. No seperate rating, no stats kept as a team, you just pick friends to play with and go. This works fine because, if the grouping proves beneficial for the players involved, their MMRs will rise and they will face stronger opponents. And then if they subsequently play solo and lose, then we know they only rose because of grouping and they will fall back down. Becuase of this the majority of matches will appear normal, and only a few matches may be lower quality due to a mismatch between rating and actual skill.

So what’s wrong with Warcraft’s system?

Because Arranged Teams are formal groups that have their own stats and MMRs kept for them, every time you play with different people (even if you play with 3 of the same people and invite 1 new person!), a new team is created. This new team is treated as if nobody in it has ever played a game before, and this has multiple negative effects:

  • Your MMR is reset back to the default starting value of 3500, regardless of the MMRs of any of the players in the group
  • Your MMR is hidden as you go through placements again
  • Because of the above, if you play with many different people, you are constantly starting over and constantly in placements, which masks the true skill level of your group.
  • Even though a recent patch added weighting to group matchmaking, because of the above, the intended effect of this change is never realized.

The solution is simple: Remove the Arranged Team system entirely, replacing it with simple parties, and rely solely on individual player MMRs, possibly in combination with the weighting already being applied. I don’t think most anyone particualrly cares about their stats on a per-team basis and won’t terribly miss team-specific record keeping. The Arranged Team system as it currently exists not only encourages smurfing, it all but forces players to smurf.

This is why AT vs RT matches seem so unfair- because almost ALL teams are literally smurfing, and it isn’t even necessarily intentional. Unless you VERY regularly play with one specific group of players, your Arranged Team’s stats will never truly reflect the group’s skill level.

Removing formal teams from the game will likely solve this problem very quickly. Players who do well in groups will rise in MMR and face stronger opponents, queue times will decrease for everyone (compared to when AT/RT was disabled), and smurfing will become dramatically less frequent. (It can’t be eliminated entirely due to multiple accounts, but especially players who just want to play with their friends and never intended to smurf will no longer be doing so). It will also significantly reduce the frequency with which players leave games early on, because seeing an obvious newly formed Arranged Team on the other side trips red flags in players that say ā€œthis match is already a loss, why bother playing it?ā€. But the reason this happens is becuase players who SHOULD be at a significantly higher MMR can effectively reset their MMR at any time by playing with a new group of players, which makes them look like noobs to the matchmaking system even though they’re really not. Fixing the system prevents this from happening and makes games with groups far more winnable.

Why an ā€œopt outā€ option is not needed, and potentially a negative thing

Removing forrmal ATs will almost completely fix all perceived fairness issues in team games. I expect that in most cases, players won’t even notice that there are groups in their matches.

Adding an opt-out option seems like a nice idea on its face- and I agree that it’s still likely at least a little better than the status quo. But adding an opt out option brings issues of its own-

  • Opting out effectively creates two queues, splitting the playerbase.
  • If people end up favoring the opt-out option, then people who want to play with friends will still face unacceptably long queue times.
  • If people end up favoring not using the opt-out option, then the people who DO choose to use it will face longer queue times.

People rage and complain about bugs and broken systems in this game all the time and demand them to be fixed. The Arranged Team system is broken in multiple ways, and I’m asking for THAT to be fixed. Fixing the system so that friends can play together without breaking the game is like a doctor treating a wound; whereas simply letting players ā€œopt-outā€ leaves the broken system in the game and gives players the option of avoiding it- like applying a band-aid over the wound instead of properly treating it.

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Yes, you’re right. Many AT teams have fake MMR, and something needs to be done about it.
But I’m in favor of completely removing AT vs. RT from the game; it’s so obvious. This will never work. The fact that AT teams currently find matches faster is devalued by the fact that 9 out of 10 games they get a free win against those who left the game and then hit search again. RT players also have no voice chat. Warcraft isn’t a shooter where one strong player can kill the entire enemy team with skill, and comparing them is pointless. Therefore, even forming teams of 6k+2k+3k+3k vs. 4k+4k+4k+4k is unfair for the first team. We need to ensure that players with 5-6k never, under any circumstances, interact with players with 2-3k.
The way it works now is terrible. After my MMR became higher than 5k in RT 4v4, my match search became very long and I was mostly matched against AT teams and this is annoying.

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This… every game vs an AT premade is a lose as a solo RT of random strangers.

Its not fun or fair at all and never will be. Solo RT needs to stay solo RT or else its just not an enjoyable gaming experience.

4 random strangers of varying skill levels, that in many cases dont speak the same language, will never match the coordination and trust that an AT arranged premade team has over the solo que RT players.

The disadvantages inherent as solo RT players vs a fully coordinated team of RTS players is to much for it to be a fun and competitive gaming experience. The ridiculous win rates of the AT arranged premade teams proves this.

The ā€œ small weighted MMR ā€œ dosnt help or make a difference. It needs to stop, the 3v3 / 4v4 solo RT game mode is suffering because of it.

When we see an AT arranged premade, we know its a losing situation, people either leave, or are instantly demoralized, its un fun, unfair, not in the spirit of what solo RT vs solo RT is at its core, and should not be forced on us with out a choice to ā€œ opt out of queing into the At arranged premade teams ā€œ as solo RT players.

It really feels like the solo RT community is just the ā€œ cannon fodder ā€œ so that At premades can have a shorter que time, at the expense of our fun and time. Most of us solo RT players are just ā€œ average joe gamers ā€œ just wanting to play some WC3 vs other solo RT players of roughly the same skill level. To force us to play against these fully coordinated AT teams is brutal and unfun for us.

Just as an example… I just faced an AT premade… the AT premade teams on their profile are

19-2 10-0 10-2 10-1 and 9-0 their ā€œ match history ā€œ has 22 wins in a row on their AT premade teams….. how… how on earth is that fun or fair vs solo RT players?

Their ONLY lose in 22 games was vs another At premade… Looking at that particular AT premade that beat them.

120-30 13-0 10-0 14-0 14-1 19-0 9-0… MADNESS!!! pure madness

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This is mostly true right now, but as I explained in my post, it does not have to be this way. The current AT system actively rigs the game for those teams by (in the vast majority of cases) making their MMR appear to be lower (sometimes WAY lower) than it should be.

All that needs to happen to make games reasonably fair is to have the skill levels of the group players accurately represented. Which can be done- it just isn’t being done now. Allegedly inherent advantages of grouping will be reflected in the form of higher MMRs, resulting in such players being matched to appropriately skilled players instead of noobs. If you’re 5000 MMR, you will have a fair chance against a similarly rated team because their overall ability is no longer being falsified by the game itself.

The default MMR is 3500. Currently, even if four people all individually had 7000 MMR, if they form a team, their MMR will be 3500, and they will be guaranteed to be matched to a weaker team (whether solo players or not) and most likely crush them. But if my proposal were to be implemented, that same four players would have an MMR of 7000 and would be facing the strongest opponents the matching system can find.

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I’m not in any way in favor of this whatsoever. The system can be fixed so these games are not unfair. If the skill of the players is accurately represented, the simple weighting already in place will account for the percieved (I say percieved because there’s no guarantee people are using voice or know each other well before grouping etc) benefits of baing in a group.

I hope you understand from my post. Virtually all other online multiplayer games have solo players and groups mixed together and there are no problems. **it is ONLY War3 that has this problem.**

if AT vs RT is removed, you may as well just remove AT entirely because it basically was the whole time this was disabled- teams could not find opponents nearly all the time. People should be able to play with their friends. This is the only game I’ve ever played that is so hostile to grouping. And I’ve already explained why this is- War3 has a bad team system. If it worked like other games, it would be fine.

I will fight to keep this in the game even though I am not a group player, because I think it is wrong to prevent friends from playing together.

IF MY SUGGESTION IS IMPLEMENTED YOU WILL NOT EVEN NOTICE GROUPS MOST OF THE TIME, because the games will be much more fair. It is not impossible to make these games fair.

If Blizzard had implented grouping correctly from the beginning 20+ years ago, we would not be having this conversation today, I guarantee you.

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I do not agree with this. AT vs RT is not fair in any game. Especially Strategy or RTS.
AT vs AT can stay of course.
Hybrid mode and MMR adjustments will not solve issues.

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You can not agree all you like, but it is a fact that dozens if not hundreds of online multiplayers allow groups and solo players to mix without problems. It is very possible to make it fair. Nothing is impossible, no matter how much you may want it to be.

You don’t understand: Even if there are guaranteed advantages to grouping (Nothing is ever guaranteed, and groups break after a single game all the time because somebody messed up or whatever), if those advantages win them games, their MMR will rise and you will not face them again. It is extremely simple but I’ll explain it one more time:

ATs are literally always smurfing because every new group is treated like a bunch of newbies that never played a game before. Of course, you and I both know that’s not really the case. But utlimately, THIS is the ENTIRE reason these games are unfair.

You’re not being very open minded here- Your hatred for the current system is clear and I don’t disagree that it’s bad. but: IT CAN ABSOLUTELY BE FIXED. Please set aside your predispositions against groups and solo play, and read my original post carefully from the beginning. Please address any individual points you dispute. That will show me that you’re being thoughtful about this.

I firmly believe it is damaging to the game and its community overall to discourage friends from playing together.

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Where do you come up with these false, salt-driven, statistics. I’ve AT’d plenty and maybe only 5 times has this happened.

Why do you always speak in absolutes. You know this is wrong. There are players, like myself, that enjoy beating teams and can do it frequent enough. The biggest issue is not being paired with multiple sub 3ks. Balance is the issue, not teams.

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Are you intentionally not reading? Sure, currently I can’t argue with your statement. But the WHOLE POINT is to FIX AND PREVENT THIS. And it’s actually very simple to do. You only see the way things are right now and assume that it’s just a foregone conclusion. Here’s the crux of it:

You think all groups are smurfs. THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT! The current system FORCES smurfing- even from ordinary friends or random people that just happen to decide to play together. That’s because THE GAME (effectively) RESETS YOUR MMR EVERY TIME YOU FORM A GROUP. Whether your group really has 0 MMR or a billion MMR, when you form a group with them and queue, that group starts at 3500 MMR again.

THAT is the problem. THAT is why AT vs RT games are so busted. But, the solution is simple! GET RID OF TEAM-SPECIFIC MMRs.

The problem will go away almost instantly. People who have been intentionally abusing this system for ā€œfree winsā€ becuase they way outskill the other players will now have to face better opponents, which is what they don’t want. People who aren’t intentionally abusing the system will rise and fall according to their individual skills (plus the group weight factor that already exists.). Simple.

You really haven’t been reading.

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LMAO :joy::rofl: This is hilarious! I predicted exactly all of that ā€˜solo RT vs. premade AT’ mess some months ago, when they published the PTR patch notes and announced they’d allow this non-sense again. And now it is the same situation again like it was some years ago.

:backhand_index_pointing_down:

My personal recommendation to any solo RT player who wants to enjoy fair team games: Try w3 champions and forget about battlenet. Let it die and leave those pathetic try-hard AT-noobs fight alone against each other :joy:

@CaptainJerk: No need to comment. I won’t answer. This is a dump and run message.

Good points CaptainJack, while I disagree on many things you say about other things but this topic you made really good points on how to make AT vs RT more fair.

It’s not nonsense. Or rather… it currently is, but doesn’t have to be.

I’ve explained this about a billion times, but the only reason it’s as big of an issue as it is, is because the Arranged Team system literally forces you to smurf every time you group with a different person.

Every time you group with someone, a new formal Arranged Team is created, and this AT is treated like nobody in it has ever played a game before- your MMR is reset to 3500, regardless of your actual skill level, and thus you are matched against other new and mediocre players no matter how good (or bad) you actually are.

This is extremely easy to fix by gettring rid of formal arranged teams entirely, replacing it with simple parties that use the MMR of the indvidual players, the same as with solo players. This eliminates the literal forced smurfing that occurs every time that you play with a different person.

The problems will almost entirely go away overnight. I’d bet my life savings on it.

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There’s no way to make every game perfectly ā€œfair-ā€ even with all RT players. This is because especially in non-1v1 games, pretty much any rating system is not really perfectly able to reflect the skill of the group as a whole (which is another reason why team-specific MMRs are such a bad idea). But aside from using a real rating system like elo or Glicko 2, we don’t really have anything better.

That being said: WHile we can’t make every game perfectly fair, whether or not groups are involved, there are steps that we can take to improve the fairness.

The expectation that every game is ā€œfairā€ is unrealistic. Matchmaking systems will make errors in predicting game outcomes. It’s just a fact of life that there is no real solution for. All we can do is try to account for the potential factors making games less fair and adjust the matchmaking accordingly.

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Haha,BLZ think Its balance
5500 RT+3x 4500 AT(5,0) against 4k 3k 3k 2k RT :clown_face:

Hey no one said the matching algo wasn’t also busted. :clown_face:

It does stupid crap like that regardless of ATs being involved.

No, before AT vs RT, its always 1458 agaisnt 2367, mmr from high to low, already pretty balance.
But now, with u play with 4x AT 5500mmr 13/0, BN mmr system still think you are 4x clowns, and make a RT team with 5k 4k 3k 3k to keep you 100%winrate.

Only half true. It was busted for nearly a year before they brought back at v rt, but then for like two months before at v rt they mostly balanced it. 3’s excluded as you would always have one player paired with the two lowest vs the three middle. Basically unplayable if you were high MMR.

They could never balance all modes correctly. And as I said, 4s was also busted for a good long time… Highest mmr vs lowest was a thing before at v rt was brought back.

You weren’t paying attention. I’ve seen totally imbalanced MMR setups since the dawn of Reforged rank play up to the present day. It’s not as bad today as it was at the beginning, but it’s still bad and it was bad during All RT.

You are the one who is never pay attention and making baseless rebuttals every day, 1458 against 2367, all RT is already pretty balance way, and people can find match in 5s-1min. Last season, last 2month, every thing is fine. But after new patch every thing changed. 4x 5k AT against 4k 3k 3k 2k pub, and 10min search time, ton of people leave BN, and sure u gonna refute it again. Just answer, why do ship, checco, sifo play in w3c now? Where is Andross, sonkie?

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Agree… 1450 vs 2360, so ā€œfairā€? :sweat_smile:
I think the bigger problem is how AT MMR is handled, not just the AT vs RT setup.