From version 1.30, we can see that the Human race only has a very small weakening, and then the enhancements in other aspects are very huge, while the other races are basically equal in terms of enhancement and weakening. Alright, Blizzard, we know your goal. The Human race is either the champion or the strongest, and the other three races are garbage, especially the Undead. So far, they have become scattered skeletons and are useless, at least for ordinary players
Coz human race was unfairly weak since 1.24
2 Likes
Yes, NE needs further nerf. currently 1800 elf can win 2000 human too easily.
4 Likes
My feedback:
Polymorph must not work on heroes. It would make Human too powerful, especially combined with invisibility + Stormbolt.
The combo of Hex+Stomp from Orc is already incredibly dangerous and can end games by killing heroes. But Polymorph+ Stormbolt is even stronger because you do not have to move the Mountain King into melee. So it is safe to use from range. And its impossible to play around when both spells are coming from range and from invisible units and heroes. Do not make Polymorpho work on heroes.
Do not unlock Tauren at Tier 2. This idea is heavily flawed. We talked about it already. Taurens are not bad, they are strong. But their role overlaps with Grunts. And you just buffed Grunts. So why would anyone build Tauren?
Consider nerfing Grunts first before you make Tauren Tier 2. Both units deserve their own role and identity. Don’t make Tauren the Grunt version 2.
If you make Tauren available at tier 2, then Orc will have every single unit unlocked at tier 2 while all other races have races locked behind tier 3. This is not fair and its very bad design.
Frost Wyrms need straight up buffs. The unit is not worth building! The Frost Breath upgrade is terrible. No one researches it because it doesn’t make the unit stronger.
Even if you made it free, it would still not be good.
Simply compare Frost Wyrms to Gryphon Riders. Gryphon Riders are strong units, even if they are not used often. That is fine. Compared to Frost Wyrms, the storm hammer upgrade is useful and makes the unit much stronger. An upgrade like this is missing for Frost Wyrms. You need to change Frost Breath to make Frost Wyrms stronger against units, not buildings!
So Frost Wyrm should be the same as Gryphon Riders. Strong, but not used every game.
To make Frost Wyrms better, they need more attack range. Increase their attack range by 100. You did this exact change to Headhunters. This simple change changed Headhunters from a bad unit to a good unit.
To do this, simply add the +100 attack range to the Frost Breath upgrade. Another option would be to make Frost Breath upgrade grant permanently level 1 Frost Armor to Frost Wyrms. By doing this, they could finally survive against he masses of ranged piercing units that are currently being used.
Another suggestion for Frost Wyrms: Decrease their damage, HP and cost and food cost slightly, to make them more affordable and less of an investment. Maybe change them to a 5 or 6 food unit, so that it is easier to field 2 or 3 of them. Gryphon Riders are also slightly lower food and lower stats, that way they are less of an investment.
If you make Tauren Tier 2, then why not make Abominations tier 2? Unlike Orc, Undead has no unit like the Grunt. Ghouls are squishy units, Abominations are damage sponges.
For Undead, Abominations would actually be useful on Tier 2 and offer new options. Consider unlocking Abominations on tier 2.
Also, Abominations are not overpowered units. Their job is to take damage and nothing else. To be actually good they need disease cloud, which is still locked behind tier 3.
2 Likes
mb just give their air to air attack splash effect? Only single target hit now
1 Like
They are weak in their micro and macro. The NE race itself is STRONG. The proof is NO NE player dominates the mirror race. So they are weak not because they cannot beat players in other races, just because they cannot beat other players in the SAME NE race.
The proof that the NE race is strong is that even if you just rank 4th in NE, you can still attend games with 16 places and often go into the play-off stage with 8 places! I cannot imagine the ranking 4th UD player or even ranking 3rd Human player (see my list below) can join such games, as there are players in the Random race. And the chance for ranking 3rd UD player and ranking even 2nd Human player is small to go into the play-offs.
Moon, Lawleit, Kaho, colorful, who can usually beat the other three? No one knows.
Happy vs 120, Lyn vs Focus, Fortitute vs Sok, it is safe to say the former ones have 80% chance to beat the other in the SAME race in all the recent PATCHES.
(Of course you can add Labyraith, xlord, Fly, soin, Hawk, blade etc to this list to make up four players in each race, but to be honest their chance to challenge the dominating race players is much lower.)
Happy, Lyn, Fortitute present their better micro/macro in such games, so they deserved the current Top 3 places.
3 Likes
Yes they deserved but you hide Critical informations here.
Happy (Top1 in every recent patch)
Lyn <The Orc master who can carry colorful to win top 2V2 match>
Fortitute <20+ continuous buffs> are the TOP3.
The reason why they are great at same race battle not only because they are best in their race but also show a simple fact they are in normal race.
If a race is overnerfed the TOP1’s advantage will fade out because every tactical choice become more risky. And the result of same race battle trends “no one knows” according to your own word if both side use 50% Hitpoints in the battle. Happy has higher winrate over 120, but 120’s chance to win will rise sharply when happy 50%hp vs 120 50%hp. Same with orc Lyn vs Focus, same with hum Fortitute vs sok. If you overnerf a race, then who is the TOP1 in that race? No one knows.
The player who is really weak in their micro and macro is the one cannot Survive without helping from buff staff. Not player from specific race.
If NE is not overnerfed , just like the old days before 1.36.1, everyone know who is the best NE player. Your self creating proof only show one thing : the NE race without a micro based solid option in Ne mirror is different from 3 others , was gravely overnerfed in every aspect by the wrong moon well nerf last patch.
P.S. Let‘s take some extreme examples here.
If I play UD vs UD with 120，my winrate will be 0%.
Now Let’s overnerf UD to all units and building have only 1 HP.
Then I will win if 120’s cat kick off his keyboard in a right timming.
Because he will lost all structures before he can use keyboard again.
If U play HU vs HU with Fortitute and again use 1 HP mode.
You will win when Fortitute's computer suddenly breakdown.
Then U can speak loadly like "Don't Force MEeeeee, I am the 1st
Hum! "
P.S.S. Fortitute’s computer breakdown many times, so your winrate will
be better than your first impression.
not overbuffed to absurd moonwells and immolation - isnt overnerfed, lol
1 Like
Thanks for pin point my weird words and I will not edit that part.
It’s weird but anyway it’s my words and I need took responsibility for what I had writen whether it’s right or wrong in Gramma.
My core point to this PTR is not related to moonwell.
This is a task should have been done by elf community.
I speak for them only because they didn’t speak for themself and they are relatively passive to discuss the balance change. So they always suffer more from inappropriate change.
Obviouly, I dislike racephobia so I have to fight some ultra biased opinion from my view.
It seems my words have gone too far away from my real topic
the reviewing of Damage Calculation Tables.
From ROC to TFT the table was changed at 2 points.
Under TFT standard Piercing damage to Light change to 200% (up from ROC’s 150%) Magic to Unarmor 100% ( up from ROC 75%)
We know all ranged units buffed after 1.27 but the table remain unchanged. So units with Light and Unarmor type relatively nerfed.
And tweak of table seems better than nerf specific unit back like HH AC or RM.Since in this way we balance the game and change the current meta without hurt to any race.
Piercing damage to Light (200%) and Unarmor (150%) should be reviewed whether it’s overpowered or not.
In my opinion, Piercing damage to Light (150%) and Unarmor (125%)
is a possible way to limit mass ranged units tactics. Keeping the Piercing damage in their advantage but give more space for caster and air units.
So we may see more remarkable matchup because units in battle field more diversed.
My opinions do metters nothing but at least I hope the Dev Team can review this point. Sorry for my destitute English vocabulary and it’s my pleasure to spent more time with dictionary. I know I still have much things to learn from it.
Hello goodfellas!
I do not really have the solutions but there are other problems within the balance in my opinion, which should be taken into considiration and your new ideas into reconsidiration. I am a Human player, so this post might sound subjective but it doesn’t say I am totally wrong.
Human:
- Dispel upgrade feels like it takes forever to get it. Make it 45-50 sec. research time.
Night Elf:
- Warden Ultimate is broken - way to strong vs Human
- Fan of knives still easly kills Human economy
- DH is simply the best hero in the game, does dmg like blade, tanks like MK, and makes any other hero useless with mana burn. I would nerf him a bit, maybe less HP is the way to go.
- Do not touch moonwells anymore! They were always strong. We all are bored and tired as you bring DH to red hp, guy staffs it back, and he is tiping back with full mana/hp on the battlefield. Moonwells were meant to be used as a defending thing not offensive I believe.
-Move staff to T3
Orc:
- Yea sure, just give them everything at T2.
Undead:
- Nerf nova or heavy nerf on dark ritual, it’s insane.
- DLs Kamehameha should also be nerfed a little.
Neo mate, I know you will read it. You think you’re objective, when you are really not. I would reduce a little bit your influence on the balance. Nothing personal. I just feel that way and many more will agree I guess.
Take care.
2 Likes
Well here I wanna to share some different view one by one.
Warden Ultimate is broken - way to strong vs Human
(Partially true because the Ult really way to strong vs Human’s caster)
That’s the reason why I trend to believe Piercing damage is OP to Unarmor units.
Fan of knives still easly kills Human economy.
(So peasant’s HP has been buffed from 220 to 240)
You can use Goblin Zeppelin to counter this meta if there are labs in map or just controll your peasants ran away to different direction. And by this way they will not be killed simultaneously.
DH does dmg like blade (with several high grade offensive items) tanks like MK (with several high grade defensive items). The two points can not be true simultaneously in same level match since DH only has 6 slots as other hero’s inventory.
Unlike Undead and Orc, Hum has clearly counter to DH mana burn. Siphon Mana. We all are bored and tired as you bring MK to red hp then heal it instanly with holy light.And he is tiping back with full mana by BMG’s Siphon Mana. You even does not need to use your staff.
Moonwell do 0 damage and can not move like ancients so it’s defending thing naturally.
Move staff to T3 (I thinks it’s ok if hum’s staff does not healing units automatically.)
P.S It’s not clear which hero is best in the game, while it’s clear that the best hero is not from NE’s altar. And you will only found the Worst hero in the game within Altar of Elders, that is Potm.
1 Like
Dear elf players,
The balance change 1.36.1 was a disaster not only to the elf race but also for the game balance itself. The reason why such an inappropriate patch was ever launched should not be neglect. Tod and Grubby are the true leader of their race, because they use their Influence to buff their race and nerf others. However there is no NightTod NightGrubby or UNdeadTod and UndeadGrubby to balance the game. So their biased opinions crush the balance.
Elf players, did you remember what happend in the comments of last patch?
“please don’t nerf moonwell I beg u ToT”or unlimited slient as always.
Such actions would never be respected. You need NightTod to protect the legitimate right of elf race from endless trolling and false claiming.
I will roleplaying as NightTod temporarily and make an example how to counter their atttack.
The following words only a joke and should not be treated seriously as balance advice.
DH
Mana burn buff from 50/100/150 to 60/120/180
Immolation no longer consume mana when there is no target to attack. mana cost 3 per target per second for Level 1/ 2 mana per target for Lv2 / 1 mana per target for lv3 /
Evasion buff from 10%/20%/30% to 15%/25%/35%
Metamorphosis CD from 180 to 160 seconds.
KOG
Entangling Roots will keeping it controlling effect when Dispeled (damage removed like live patch) lv2 Casting range 600 to 700
Force of Nature add Slow Poison to lv2 and lv3 treants/ add Hardened Skin to lv3 treants
Tranquility CD from 180 to 120 seconds
Potm
Ah…Too weak & so desperate. Reforge this hero or try import orc KODO instead.
If reforged some skills for instance
Starfall: lv.1 summon a star upon single target deal 75 direct damage with 1 sec stun and a 25 damage to adjacent units in melee range. /lv.2 150 damage 2 sec stun and 50 damage to adjacent units in melee range /lv.3 225 damage 3 sec stun and 100 damage to adjacent units in melee range <100mana and 800 casting range>
Multiple arrow: Potm’s attack hit one more adjacent target in melee range. If the main target is Air unit, the extra target become 2 for Lv.1/ 3 for lv.2 /4 for lv3.
Scout beome Ultimate skill
same with live patch. new feature : Owl can be use as target point for use Town Portal. When portal is used the owl can be killed by any attack 1 hit. And the town portal lost under this circumstance.
Warden
Increase base Str and Int by 1.
Fan of Knives mana cost from 100 to 90
Shadow Strike mana cost from 75 to 70
At first glance, these changes are too Toddy, but unlike DayTod , RP-temp NightTod’s joke metters no one else so it will not harm to the balance. And crybabies will eventually respect it because we do samething just in different race.
In the past 20 years top elf players are truely weak to show their balance opinions. They should be blamed for not making such joke into reality. Their hobby to SHOW when they already won in a match even worsen this situation and its really silly.
At same time, I believe Tod and Grubby should not be blamed because they do great works for their own race and they are great exemplars should be respected. After all, everyone has it own biased opinions that is quite normal.
Since there is no reliable NightOD, the onlyway to save elf and the game balance is learning and mirroring from the crybabies. If more elf player stands out, their trolling and false claiming attack to elf should have been drown into the deep oceans of split. So dear elf players we need your comments whether reasonable or not. You may believe your opinions matters nothing, however it will gradually changed if you speak out more loudly than the evil attackers who intend to push elf into abyss.
By keeping slient to the discussion of balance changes, you will not only lose the future of elf race but also lose a balanced legendary RTS game which is our valuable commonwealth for all four race.
That would be a very sad story, please take actions to refuse such a tragedy world line.
Grubby plays every race and unlike ToaD, he would definitely want the races to be perfectly balanced, even if Orc would suffer from a patch.
night elf should have a complete rework! simply tweaking the vallues of their existing mechanics will just make elf more imbalanced in 1v1 scenarios…and their weakness in mass/dragged out game/late game/wide scale matches is not addressed. Check some of the comments i made last week and years ago! Changing mechanics that makes sense in gameplay mechanics and lorewise is the only way to go!
No ElfTod for him, yeah.
When the Keeper got buffed, so that he threw roots from the darkness and killed any unit, what did the elves say? “It’s normal.”
When the bears were given mana for 2 rejuvs from the start, when the giants were made from 425 to 350 gold, from 7 to 6 limit, and the second taunt just like that, what did the elves say? “Yes, everything is fine, perfect balance.”
When the demon’s immolation was buffed too much, what did the elves say? “Yes, everything is fine, Humans, just learn to micro.”
When the Humans’ MK was buffed bash on PTR, what did the Humans say? “This is some kind of imbalance, this should not come out in live, remove the change.”
Feel the difference and don’t whine, fakeTod
2 Likes
Yes I will surely stop to whine in Tod style as soon as I could simply because it is very uncomfortable to live with a metal face. While the master Tod hold his line so easily, I hope grandmasters of elf learn something from his strong mental spirit. And do some work for their race not sleeping like Druids when the rules of game changed rapidly.
As a hum player you almost always need vast time and resource to build a highly advanced force. That simply means you will have negative game exprience in the first 50%-66% parts of the game even you finally won your opponent. And when your opponent is NE, the negative feeling enhanced because NE is a highly dynamic race so you may have to defend every posssible way to counter their Ditto diverse tactics.
However, every coin has two sides. The elf units is strong to output Piercing damage but ex-fragile when attacked.
Why happy won UvN with such high winrate? Because he is master at micro controll massive frenzy 120 to destory NE force in a short time.
We all know the DPS of a dead unit is 0.
Why elder HUM Grandmaster took medals by defeating NE in finals without recent buffs to HUM? Because they are master at strategic choice, so they avoid combat when they did not have enough force to destory NE force in a short time. Unlike 3 others, the balance of NE race is standing on cloud not on the ground. Thus this race will be whether too OP if NE force can survive long enough or too weak if the damage dealer units removed in a blitz round. That’s the reason why you feel surpressed as the opponent of NE, while a elf player could always lose a match suddenly like colorful. If colorful use a soild race he will not have this sudden time I believe.
The situation is not better but worsen since 1.36.1 , so we need save elf and save the game balance from this Ultra limited cloudy balance and let the NE race more normalized like three others. Adjust to moonwell will not solve the unhealthly design of NE radically, even with a Toddy numerical number like 1.75, the result will not be changed, but somewhat better than 1.35.
Certainly, nerfing other race including the already excessively buffed HUM will not solve the mechanics issue of NE. In my view, the really right direction of rebalance is limit the overperformed Piercing damage which used by NE mostly and let the NE race more durable at same time. By this way NE will have more stable game and the pressure of NE’s opponent reduced obviously. So we may finally curing the elfphobia.
We can do this change by Tweaking the Damage calculation tables carefully.
same as polymorph on heroes, most human players says thats too much
but for NE players every another insane overbuff is ok and even need more
2 Likes
Maybe we could come up with a spell that at lvl 1 has the same range as entangle lvl 3, single target damage comparable to bolt, and crowd control comparable to clap, but on an intelligence hero with unlimited mana lvl from lvl 4 onwards.
ps: pls nerf nova a bit more. As clap, storm bolt, entangle, breath of fire and stomp were nerfed in the past.
When is it going live? Can’t wait 
1 Like
Please fix following bug with race crests on custom loading screen before the release.
Custom Loading screen includes race crest
2 Likes