Scout is inefficient.
raise Defense 0 -> 1
How about reducing storm to -> 50 energY?
Scout is 2x price of Wraith, and 2x durable, but same ground dps and x1,5 air dps.
Scout have bad speed, so he can’t kite scourges, run away from large enemy pack, while every mobile aviation IS better in everything: higher speed, cost-dps, sight. Corsair is scouting better, much more cost-effective in fights. But yes, 2 scouts are, as i remember, twice as affective than carriers in air-to-air. full 8x carrier costs as x2 scouts and having x2,5 durability, while havind air dps of 1 scout. So in PvP we can use sudden scout army to hunt carriers down.
But comparing to other air units, for example wraiths will easy win them in fight (i say every time about dps/cost, hp / cost), have the speed, have stealth, and harass twice better. And muta is much much better than wraiths, thanks to glaves AND zerg tendence to have more bases, more gas extractors. That all makes scout as a troll weapon, which have same problems vs scourges, as carriers.
if I had access to patching, I would double the ground damage for the scouts, and compensate for the low speed with a greatly increased viewing radius, say, basic to 11 with an improvement to 13.
Good speed until later technologies would have been clearly superfluous for them, given the ability to recharge shields on a proxy battery, but at the same time, the zerg, for example, would simply throw plague at them. I see no point in scouts being so weak against the ground, given that they have no advantage over other aircraft at all.
I, of course, have heard about non-linear balance in games, and this is what I would suggest: for example, I sometimes like to play mass wraiths against zerg, despite the fact that they are capable of losing at times to the price exchange muta. It is enough to use stealth to shave off overlords and dodge the green goo. That is, despite their problematic efficiency in exchanges, they have a great tactical advantage.
The Scouts have no advantages, in almost any situation they will be replaced by other troops. By the way, while I’m here, I want to tell those who do not know that wraiths replace battlecruisers in most of their tasks. the speed is 2.7 times higher. 3 wraiths cost like 1 battle, a battle has HP like 4 wraiths, and 3 base armor is of course a super advantage, plus they are very economical in gas, considering that even whips have to be spent no less in gas, saving only a little mineral. However, 3 wraiths have the same ground DPS as BC, and anti-air is 3 times higher (for large targets). Which makes me think that wraiths are the best air investment for a terran in most cases, and that BC should be used with the expectation of first absorbing a lot of frequent small damage, and secondly using Yamato.
Find me uses for Scouts, after reading their parameters on liqipedia, comparing with the rest and taking into account the features of explosive damage. The same muta takes twice less damage from Terran Turrets, and the bounce effect can be counted as doubling the damage
I have an old thread about upgrading the Scout as well and below were my suggestions:
- Reduce research time for Apial Sensors and Gravitic Thrusters to 63 sec each at fastest game speed ( currently 105 sec).
- Return base armor to +1 (was changed in 1.04 patch to 0)
- Increase ground damage upgrade to +2 per upgrade.
Do a PTR for this if you have to just for testing and see if it allows for more uses for the Scout as currently they are the only unit which sees no action in competitive ladder games and tournaments.
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I like the technical discussion occurring here but I do have a use for the Scouts. You mention costs yes?
Well, it has happened to me on some occasions where I thought I had enough air defenses (installations and air support) only to find out that a few carriers and some scouts devoured my main base. And, once setup, I never have an inadequately defended base - but I do have a vastly different approach now.
I generally exploit a weaker base and pick off the enemy until the base becomes rubble - especially if they are zerg. Once you destroy the weak anti-air installations, the zerg do not really have good air defense - and yes the Yamato is perfect to destroy zerg. If you have a mass of scouts, they will do to take over the map one base removal at a time. I do also very much agree that an army of only scouts will not do, so that much is so very true.
Like I say, they are means to and end, and not the favorite choice but with protoss, I see this: all of their units cost more than cheaper units with the other 2 races (mutalisk and wraiths for instance). So, what do I do to compensate for this differential? I heavily invest in defenses because you have one of the best possible if not the best possible with protoss and the cannons being doubly advantageous - I don’t have to build turrets and bunkers or separate zerg defenses - and so I can focus on how to damage and pick off the enemy one at a time.
But, after some really heated free-for-all, the zerg I conclude would be the easiest race to win with - having the right strategy and no one rushes you quick. If you survive the beginning onslaught, then what I did is to invest in guardians and devourers. Yes, they are massively expensive and I had a lot more devourers on my last game than guardians and only had to replace them from time to time.
The guardians are so much more effective than tanks due to aerial proficiency (yes slow but…) and the lack of having to be in a mode for far range without mobility. I learned my lesson and always have more devourers than guardians - I didn’t even build up to 200 max population on my last game - and just annihilated all bases.
I dont agree, first of maybe look up before writing stuff and spreading as facts, even though they are not…
Scout prize 275/125 wraith 150/100 (this is not 2x )
build time 50 seconds on fastest 37,5 on fastest
population 3 2
ground damage(normal damage) 8(+1) (same as wraith) ------
air damage 28(+2) (14*2) explossive damage 20 (+2)explossive damage
Range 4 range 5
sight 8 (+2 if upgraded) sight 7
Speed 3,720 (-> 4,963 same as muta and wraith) speed 4,963
0 armor armor 0
both large units
In fact it is not 2x prize of wraith specially considering gas and time that normally you have less off, Durable a scout can kill 2 wraiths and survive if it attacks one after the other still more than what you suggest. Its ground damage same, air dps is more than 1,5 of wraith air dps…
When you are making suggesting balances to a game, you would at least expect to have the basic rights. otherwise there isnt really any point in suggesting is there? How can we trust someone if he/she doesnt even take the time to check facts … ? And your whole comment has holes that dont add up …
We all know Scouts have a hard time and maybe should be patched, but maybe on bases of real facts, and real gameplay.
In fact even though SCouts have a hard time, there is on one hand the Stove a kind of troll build that goes for mass scouts. And even on the highest level we see them sometimes in Protoss vs Zerg match up to scout and kill some workers. when there is a lack of anit air units only spores to protect overlords.
On fastest possbile map on the other hand you will find them more commonly, since money is plenty, the two upgrades speed -> making them as fast as mutas and Wraith, and the vision upgrade.
Either way Scout anti air is one of the highest in the game, i allways wondered why they didnt touched the scout unit again … But if you look at the stats of many Protoss units, upgrades you will notice, that many of them were not changed and have relativelly high research/build time, etc. , which goes along with the high prize / Strong unit thing in Protoss.
Also Battlecruiser are seen in Bio vs zerg play more and more and are standart by now, because of the fact that Zerg is stretched so wide, they cant really affort enought scourage to kill the Battlecruiser. Since Terran is mainly focused on bio mainly marines, that only cost minerals. And every unit the Zerg needs besides Zergling costs gas, the BC switch really pays off for the Terran. You can even abuse terrain with Battlecrusier range and deny gas. It is really crazy.
I will again post my suggestions hoping someone in Blizzard going to take notice.
Bro, I think you are missing a crucial point in balancing.
Protoss, as a whole, already has a tonne of tools available.
Your suggestion would just make another possible issue for the enemy to adjust to.
The whole point of this thread is to suggest buffs/upgrades for the Scout to make it playable in competitive games and not relegate it to just campaign missions. So yes there could be a balance shift. As of the moment no one uses Scout’s in the Pro scene or Ladder games unless you just like to troll your opponent, its like a meme unit. You could remove it entirely from the game and would have almost no impact at all. My suggestions would give it a chance to at least see some sort of play in the mid to late game if you can read into the proposed changes I put in as these buffs are geared for this time frame. Just my 2 cents as a player, in the end Blizzard makes the decisions.
Didn’t read all comments. too long.
Pros (ASL) don’t use scouts for a reason. Only two times is either to insult your opposition or to force a very greedy Zerg to make hydra (when Zerg is massing lings with carapace upgrade). Second scenario also allows killing overlords more effectively. In both cases, only 1 scout is made 
At lower level game play, mass scouts can be effective. Decent air dps but can also back stab and take out buildings (unlike wraiths that melt too quickly). This is a late game strategy requiring good upgrades. Possibly a reason we never see it at pro level. Also need a lot of resources as not very cost effective. Mass scouts is also boring to watch
I mean it can be fun to think about what changes like this would do to the game, if that’s all you’re trying to do with this post. But at the end of the day Broodwar does not do balance changes like other games do. Suggesting any type of change like this is totally useless - they will (rightly) never do it.
The meta changes based on maps, not on forced adjustments to units and the like from Blizzard. It’s a totally different thing than you might be used to from other games.
Agree, but i think the biggest part people miss. Is the fact that Starcraft broodwar is fact isnt only 1vs1. Not only do we have many different team maps, ffa maps,normal maps that have their own subcommunities, but there are also many custom maps, Eud maps that either already use the scout, can just change units stats per se or just dont f. care.
What i find quite interesting is the fact that many Protoss units have quite long researchs for certain abilities and often were like it seems not touched in connection to balance. Also in connection to zvt, wouldnt zvt be unbalanced without muta stacking and muta micro … All these balance talk is non sense to a certain point since, it seems Broodwar only reached it thx to buggs and exploites discorvered. And some sligh balancing …
I think the best thing to do is have the Pro players in Korea give input or even do a poll as they are in the best position to call out if changes are needed for the Scout to be more useful in competitive games.
Muta stacking was discovered, not intended by devs or for balancing. At least that is my understanding.
The reverse actually happened. Muta ended up being so OP because of glaives/stack/micro, they added balance via corsair and valks.
One point you raised that may be somewhat valid is that since the last balancing patch (years ago), several new exploits have been discovered making some units more effective. However, for whatever reason, maps etc have kept things balanced regardless.
It might add some entertainment value to see more of the units that never get used at Pro level. Scout is by far the least used, followed by the ghost, although Korean pro Sorry has lately been using ghosts to lock down speed shuttles and nuke expansions.
In the early days, people thought the vulture was a terrible unit. Now its probably considered on par with the zergling as the best cost effective unit in the game.
That is what brings the most dollars however. ASL and Esports tournaments that preceded it.
"Muta stacking was discovered, not intended by devs or for balancing. At least that is my understanding.
The reverse actually happened. Muta ended up being so OP because of glaives/stack/micro, they added balance via corsair and valks."
It is true that they added Valks and corsairs to give the other raises a easier time vs Zerg air. But Muta stacking was found years later after broodwar already was realeased. Valks itself what quite buggy with its infamous not shouting rockets, when the spirit limited was lower prior to remastered.
There are other options anyway like iradiate, marines + medics,etc.
With stacking irradiate is even more powerfull. Without stacking Marines and medics are even more powerfull.
Although in 1 vs 1 it was more viable, it isnt that hard to kill the valkyrie sacrificing 2 mutas or so to kill all of them with scourage. Specially since it needs to stop to fire,If it isnt microed full time…
And generally most people consider TvZ prior to Muta stacking Terran favoured from today perspective(At the top level). Even with that most people see Terran slightly favoured. But in any case it also depends on the map , i guess.
Either way you think, it isnt out of nowhere that Muta Stacking + its micro is considered a basic skill that defines how good you are in ZvT. No imagine, if it wasnt in the game…
What if you just add detection to Scouts?
- it will allow for an expensive 1 unit counter to nuclear bombs and Dark Templar
- it will be a great combo to zealots or dragoons dealing with lurkers
- it will finally have a use that deserve its name.
- it will still have all the flaws it has an be easy to dealt with unless fully upgraded
Just leave the game as is. It is perfectly balanced.
Scout needs a change to see action in the game. Best people to decide what the change is would be the Pro’s who play it at a competitive level.
upgrade terran ghost cos much gas , we need kill protoss easy