Zerg and Toss OP

Research done by Terran community

I wanted to say did you read it under stupid jokes section but then i membered you play Terran so this is good it’s some progress you actually use brain sometimes thumbs up!

No, you do not necessarily need batteries against Terran bio.

Protoss have been doing fine vs Terrans before LOTV when batteries do not exist.

High Templar’s feedback counters both Raven and Ghost. This would help save your Collossus.

Tanks and Thors do poorly against Protoss due to Immortals. You can also use Phoenix to lift up tanks which would make them useless.

Battlecruisers might be a threat but you have Tempests to deal with them. Tempest long air range keeps BCs at bay.

Vikings and Widow mines are merely support units. There are so many ways to deal with them.

The fact that you can’t refute the points I brought up about how Protoss are easy mode only goes to show that deep down in your heart, you know I am right.

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For Siege Tanks, the large health pools and mobility-boosting abilities of most Gateway units also play a role. Stronger units like Archons and Immortals generally aren’t needed to deal with them, they just make it easier for Protoss when Protoss tries to directly engage the Tanks without “tricks”.

Most Gateway units take 3-4 Tank hits to take down, and their mobility-boosting abilities like Blink, Charge, and Shade way units can be used to avoid the Tanks, to force friendly-fire, and to pounce onto the Tanks whenever they are vulnerable (unsieged or lacking significant support).

The Siege Tanks’ low mobility compared to Gateway units is also a great liability unless the Tanks are already at the enemy main and natural (where there is hardly a need to move), or when they only need to defend the main and natural (even then, there are usually gaps when you only have a few tanks).

Outside of some early pushes, Tanks need very large numbers, and often a very large buffer in order to compete with Protoss. Disruptors can more or less destroy any buffer the Terran player tries to use, and the mobility issue can be exploited by constantly attacking multiple bases, keeping the Terran player locked on one side of the map.

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How is possible to be that bad that at your 1 attack protoss have templars and colossus???

No actually the more i read comments and responses from Terran players the more im certain that you need MEGA nerfs to be balanced

Exactly, what time of the game balance are you referring to?
Back when protoss had the mothership core and pylon or nexus overcharge? Those were replaced with shield batteries.

Are you referring to a time when HT feedback did 1 to 1 damage per energy removed to deal with ghosts and ravens? Now its 0.5 to 1 damage per energy removed.

Are you referring to a time when Phoenix had 7 base range and longer lift time without the graviton upgrade.? That’s not the case now.

Are you referring to a time when the immortals had hardened shield rather than barrier shield to deal with tanks and thors ?

Are you referring to a time when the BCs abilities had energy limitations instead of cooldowns when HT’s feedback did 1 damage per energy removed? A time when BCs didn’t have tactical jump for tempests to struggle with ? A time when nexus recall was faster and didn’t make protoss units vulnerable to damage? A time when tempests didn’t just melt to thors?

Are you referring to a time when viking range was same as corruptors; 6 range? Its 9 now.

Are you referring to a time when widow mines required drilling claws to be perma cloaked when mothership core were still in the game and protoss had nexus overcharge and pylon overcharge? They don’t have it anymore.

Are you referring to a time when Colossus had 30 damage against everything when disruptors didn’t exist? That’s changed for the worse a long time ago.

I am curious how you think protoss can defend against against air units without stargates efficiently with only stalker blink, plz explain.


If your Terran opponents can sink a lot of gas to build Ravens and Ghosts, this means you shouldn’t have problems going for Colossus and Templars.

Oh please, every race be it Terran, Zerg and Protoss have their own shares of “extremist” that wants mega buff for their chosen race and mega nerfs for the opposing race.

As for me, all I request is no more nerfs. That’s because a lot of Terran units have already been nerfed and some of it have been done in haste just because other races prefer to complain rather than figuring out ways how to deal with the strategy.

And as for Protoss, your guys are playing an easy mode race for the reasons I have mentioned and so should be grateful for not being nerfed or to be redesigned.

Before LOTV which obviously means both WOL and HOTS.

May I know what went worse?

I don’r recall mentioning this. Maybe you can help me to quote that post.

You need MEGA nerfs not ordinary nerfs

No that’s Protoss we are nerfed to ground cause you cry about us being imba last 13y and zergs are like what Terran said and this is why toss can’t win anything since lotv

See you had reverted nerf on marauder tank buf battlecruiser buf thor buf viking buf raven buf while toss got all toys nerfed or redesign in a way that is nerf and despite for years not winning anything here we have it right from mouth of Terran player TOSS OP TERRAN UP PLS NERF TOSS BUFF TERRAN

Yeah, you can actually read it above.

Shield Batteries may not be strictly necessary (depending on the builds), but they help a lot. They also replace much older mechanics that were intended to serve the same purpose, but that had other issues.

I would consider Shield Batteries much better for the game than say…the Mothership Core; and the fact that Shield Batteries are primarily defensive units (not part of a standard timing push) is a huge part of that.

Building a Robotics Bay and a Templar Archive is prohibitively expensive. Miro’s suggestion of engaging on the map is more reasonable.

Phoenixes have never had “7 base range”. Getting beyond 5 range has always required an upgrade. That upgrade was introduced in WOL for 4 +2, and in HOTS the base range was increased to 5 (for 5 + 2). LOTV Phoenixes have only received cosmetic changes. Phoenixes might still be ok if they had 7 base range (with no upgrade), but they have never had it before.

The lift time of Graviton Beam has also never changed. WOL and HOTS multiplayer displays time in game-time, matching the editor values. LOTV multiplayer (multiplayer only) modifies all display values by the game-speed. Game-speed is usually faster, which is a 1.4x multiplier, so every time-sensitive value you see in standard multiplayer and in the LOTV liquipedia pages is multiplied or divided by 1.4x respectively. That “7 seconds” you see in liquipedia is the same 10 seconds (in editor values) that Phoenixes always had before.

As a mechanic, hardened shields was never balanced, nor could it be without making the ability basically useless in all but the most extreme case. Just like Point-Defense-Drone, and a few other monstrosities, Hardened Shields was an ability that was impossible to balance due to its uneven scaling.

Battlecruisers were outright non-viable at that time, as were Thors in TvP.

Vikings have never been limited to 6 anti-air range. Between this mistake and your Phoenix mistake, it is obvious you have little idea what you are talking about.

Originally, Widow Mines were always perma-cloaked. That wasn’t changed until LOTV (presumably for harassment), where cloaking was removed during the Sentinel cooldown, only to be partially reverted to its present state.

Yep, that was an intentional change to move away from the Protoss “death-ball” as it was known by moving some of the power away from Colossus.

  1. Colossus were nerfed to 12x2 at the introduction of LOTV.
  2. Colossus attack speed was then buffed by 10%.
  3. Then the damage was changed to a more specialized 10 +5v.L x2

At this point, it would probably be best to change the damage to 12 +3 v. Light x2, but that really isn’t my call.

That mostly does work until air armies get very large, but at some point:

  • Avoiding Liberator zones becomes more difficult.
  • The Stalkers’ wasted shots become a more significant issue: Stalkers, Adepts, and Tempests all have major problems with this due to their long cooldowns and slow projectiles.
  • Stalkers can no longer out-scale certain air units by building a supply advantage.

There definitely need to be buffs to at least some Protoss anti-air units for the late-game.

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Shield batteries maybe intended by Blizzard to be purely defensive but it also can be used offensively.

There are Protoss players that build pylons and shield batteries over the cliff of the enemy base and used it as support for their Void Rays and Tempest to do a hit and run tactic to decimate the opponent’s base.

While one can argue that it is the enemy’s negligence for not scouting, this tactic shows that shield batteries can be used offensively as mothership core’s nexus overcharge during HOTS.

sc2pulse.nephest. com/sc2/?season=52&queue=LOTV_1V1&team-type=ARRANGED&us=true&eu=true&kr=true&cn=true&bro=true&sil=true&gol=true&pla=true&dia=true&mas=true&gra=true&page=0&type=ladder&ratingAnchor=99999&idAnchor=0&count=1#stats-race

You can find all the information right here. Lowest average MMR by a mile. Slightly higher activity rates (about 3% more per player on average). Moderately higher player retention (about 6%).

Let me just cherry pick data that goes in my favor yup yup Terran hardest to play there you go problem solved now nerf Toss nad buff Terran cause Terran up 10x micro macro shift click and pressing t with my bio

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Literally the entire ladder. The. Entire. Ladder. Averaged out across all players. Terran players have the lowest average MMR.

What kind of nerf you have in mind for Terran?

Terran already have the slowest army production, a lot of squishy units, slow movement speed and different upgrades for bio or mech.

Plus Terran already have received a lot of nerfs in the past and if there are further nerfs, then you will easily get your free wins which is probably what you desire.

May I know which nerfs are you referring to?

Protoss do have a lot of powerful A-Move units like Colossus, Immortals and Carriers and so it’s not surprising that Protoss units were being nerfed in order to make the game balance.

And if you are referring to pro players, bear in mind that there are different skill gaps between the pros. All I m saying it’s likely that the current Protoss pro players are inferior to their Terran and Zerg counterparts.

Anyway pro games do not affect us casual gamers. If you want to improve, you can always learn from Protoss pro players.

I don’t get the reverted nerf of marauder.

For tanks, I would consider it a nerf because medivacs could no longer lift tanks in siege mode.

And as far I am aware, Ravens are actually being nerfed as PDD is being removed and anti armor missiles no longer do any damage.

Thors got redesign while Vikings remain relatively unchanged.

Battlecruisers were indeed buffed and that’s reasonable because they are expensive and requires alot of teching.

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Marauders were nerfed to two attacks for 5 +5 v. armored near the beginning of LOTV. This made Marauders so bad against armored targets that they couldn’t fulfill their function, and needed to be reverted.

Overall, tank-pickup was never anything more than a gimmick.

Siege Tanks were simply too weak to function as the zone control unit that they were designed to be, and they are overall better now (where they are strong enough to actually function as designed) than they were with pick-up (where Tanks were so weak that their entire design philosophy had to be more or less circumvents to make them relevant).

Ravens are nerfed, but it from a design perspective (not in terms of overall strength) it was for the better.

The old Raven was a unit that you wanted to mass to exploit the stacking, instant-damage of Seeker Missiles and the stacking, projectile-absorbing abilities of PDD. Either these spells weren’t powerful enough to justify the use of Ravens, or they encouraged building up a very large number of Ravens to exploit them. A large enough fleet of the old Ravens could negate projectile units and destroy massive armies with Seeker-spam, which was not a healthy dynamic.

The current Raven’s abilities are designed for Ravens to be useful as support in low numbers:

  • Interference Matrix is generally difficult to use in large numbers at once, but it can make a big difference in small engagements.
  • AAM shared Seeker Missile’s problems initially, since it was introduced with “some” of the instant damage, but the current version increases damage dealt without ever stacking. The overall damage added by AAM is low (usually lower than any direct-damage spell), but it still ends up being a useful spell if you have 1 or 2 Ravens for detection.
  • The Raven changes also enabled a cost decrease, so Ravens aren’t as onerous when built mainly for detection.
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Nerfed to ground il quote a terran player after small buff colossus received “now they don’t suck as much”

Zealot nerf, stalker nerf, colossus even after small buf are crap compared to hots, templar nerf, lameball nerf, tempest redesigned in to nerf, carrier redesigned in to nerf, mothership nerfed, mama core removed battery introduced (inferior defense) later nerfed observer (yes that observer) nerfed, immortal nerfed and price increased.

Try and guess which race cried about ALL of this units being op

This is correct reasoning was that you guys are soooo fast and superior that you wanted to play mech army so to make it fair you got very powerful tanks so powerful that now 1 tank with hand of bio can defend anything and in certain number so strong that they counter even their counter but you know we talk here about Terran and you guys cried and cried till you got your old rauder back

Yes, there needs to be buffs for protoss anti-air units and more importantly, stalkers. This unit loses straight out to marauders like paper against scissors. Stalker cost should at the very least be reduced to 100/25 and anti-armor bonus increased from +5 to +10 like marauders themselves.

And, immortals need to shoot up, have 8 range and move as fast as stalkers. Or, have their cost reduced to 200/100 and shoot up. Why? Because there’s not enough anti-air to begin with. No proper anti-air units like thors and current cyclones

Your ideas are ridiculous.