I used to get a lot of wins using the nydus, believe it or not. It was one of my standard strategies near the end of HotS. Right now both protoss and terran can do a completely standard build and hold the allin while coming out ahead in workers. There are just too many hard counters. He just clicks an oracle or void ray on it, or warps in a zealot and pulls some probes. It’s hilarious how weak it is.
Contrast the nydus against a liberator which has guaranteed value. The worst case scenario is that a liberator distracts the zerg while a hellion runby happens, takes attention away from his build, denies mining, then goes and kills some overlords. In the usual case scenario he forces spores, extra queens, and kills a few drones too. He is also impervious to allins since the liberator can siege and defend at home rather than counter-attacking.
The nydus worm has a worst case scenario of negative value because of the high upfront cost to use it, and this scenario is very likely since it’s so easy to deny. The nydus can’t help defend in the case of an allin, so it’s a useless investment for defense. It doesn’t even compare to a liberator. Outside of a scenario where you do a hard allin, and your opponent somehow doesn’t scout it (he must be browsing youtube or something) and you get get lucky and unload a whole army in his base, the nydus has negative value.
It is mind boggling that the people who have reapers, hellions, banshees, BCs, medivac drops, etc, complain about the nydus. Talk about a monstrous contradiction. A reaper is coming and going practically anywhere it wants to inside of Zerg’s base right from the start of the game. Imagine if I ignored a reaper for 14 seconds (lmao). I would instantly lose the game.
Reapers require an active defense to deal with them. The nydus just doesn’t compare. The nydus is a slightly more active defense than T/P are used to having to do, but nowhere near as active as what zerg deals with all game, every game. These players COULD NOT play zerg – they would go insane when they realize just how hard the game is for zergs.
It’s not the TCf’s fault that you mistook their argument against the nydus. We complained at the time that it was invincible, not the current version. The only terran players who have a problem with nydus are mech players in which case it’s their own fault. Bio players secretly love the nydus, the trick is to let them think that you’re not prepared but instead have units just out of vision so that when the Zerg player releases his load you can clear it for free. It’s the same as a mech player teleporting his BC’s into a bunch of burrowed infestors. When I play Zerg, there’s no better feeling than taking control of a BC and using the gtfo teleport.
Speaking of “invincible”, how much supply does Zerg need to stop a doom drop or a triple BC teleport? Now, how much supply did Terran need to stop the “invincible” nydus? Yeah, exactly. You’d need 20-50 supply to stop typical Terran harassment meanwhile a nydus could be shut down by 2 marauders. The nydus was never overpowered EXCEPT for the timing when you could get it out. They simply needed to nerf the build time and it would’ve been fine.
Yes, the nydus is absolute garbage and has a net negative value that helps the terran to win. An easy remedy would be to either reduce the cost OR increase the guaranteed-value. You could, for example, give the emerging nydus a small attack that it uses to defend itself before it pops. If it were like a spine crawler, the zerg would get 2 or 3 worker kills which is a little bit of value compared to the insane cost of the nydus. You’re still spending 225 gas to kill 3 workers which sucks. That’s a horrible trade. But, it’s less horrible than currently. Combine that with the small chance that you actually do get to unload some units, and it MIGHT be worth it.
Nyduses are firmly in the “clown build” category. You use it to flex on your opponents / assert alpha male dominance. That’s their only use. Other builds in this category include “beating your opponent with worker harass” and by “worker harass” I mean “loading your workers into an overlord and using them to harass enemy workers”. That is the category the nydus is in.
Ironically, putting drones into a drop-a-lord is likely more effective and less costly than a nydus. The build time would be less, the cost would be less, and you might actually get 1 worker kill with it. It’s also reusable, can reposition itself / retreat and go back in another time. You’d legitimately be better off putting drones into a dropalord than using a nydus. That’s how flipping bad the nydus is. The nydus is one of the biggest clown builds to ever exist.
Before: 10,725 resource-cost army vs 5,550.
After: 4,400 vs 3,050
The battle reduced Zerg’s army to 40% of its previous value, while the terran’s was reduced to 55% of its previous value. The Zerg lost 2.5 resources for every 1 the terran lost and this is despite having a A) massive supply lead, B) an upgrade lead, C) a three-way surround. >99.99% of the time, the zerg will not have these advantages.
This was a 15 minute game when it ought to have been a 5 minute game. Terran’s ability to turtle is far too powerful, period, end of story. The only thing it accomplishes is that it drags out games that already have their outcome set into stone. You could drag this game out for a thousand years and the Terran would never win (and nor should he – he made too many mistakes). Zerg needs game ending tools.
Imagine if this game were on a map that the third doesn’t allow for 3-way surrounds. Imagine if the terran hadn’t thrown away 4 medivacs full of bio before this battle happened. Never mind that the zerg is on 5 bases (with a gold) when the terran is barely getting his third up. If this were on Moondance, the game easily could’ve gone to the 40 minute mark.
They reduced the cost of nydus networks in exchange for the invincibility. 75/75 is a small price to pay when you don’t have to put units in direct danger unless you commit, unlike terran harassment (barring BCs).
When it comes to doom drops terran’s biggest hurdle is taking damage on medivacs. So that 20-50 supply is actually just a handful of queens that buy enough time for the rest of your army to arrive.
You are joking, right? It’s rare that a Terran ever loses anything that costs gas. A nydus is practically guaranteed to donate gas to the terran for free. It’s also not just the head of the nydus that you pay for. The total cost isn’t 75, it’s 225. That’s just the gas cost of one attempted nydus.
They literally don’t care. Medivacs can get in and unload so fast that they will kill the spores or queens before losing any medivacs. Usually the terran might lose one, but he was planning on trading out some units anyway. He then lifts up and boosts over the terrain to another zerg base. These are not things that the nydus can do.
By the way, you are positing a scenario where the zerg is ready and in position. In that scenario, a nydus would instantly die and instantly lose gas.
xD Zerg players talking about infrastructure cost is hilarious. Yes, a nydus network costs 225 gas upfront but you only ever risk 75 gas/attempt. The canal is safe, you don’t have to proxy it like you do your hatcheries, Batzy. A doom drop however could get intercepted and you lose like in your screenshot.
He was planning on attacking your economy, not the 400 hp 1 armour fortress that buys enough time for the units to cross the map. You’re also meant to oscillate with a nydus all-in between the main and the natural, so yes they can do exactly the same things as a doom drop.
Um, the facts don’t remotely support that. You can keep saying “Zerg is the hardest race.” But that doesn’t make it true.
Terran players demonstrably play the most games and have the most experienced player base. Despite this they have the lowest average MMR by a LOT. You Zerg players getting around each other and circle jerking that your race is hardest is just plain moronic and delusional.
Terran is at their ultimate tech by 5 minutes. Zerg generally doesn’t get there until 12 minutes.
You have to be trolling. The investment/reward of the nydus goes like this:
Tries nydus. 225 gas wasted. Tries nydus. 300 gas wasted. Tries nydus. 375 gas wasted. Tries nydus. 450 gas wasted. Tries nydus. 525 gas wasted.
But, you have it so bad because a barracks costs 150 minerals?
No that game is proof of what I am talking about in more ways than just one. He saw the spire right as it went down with a single medivac drop. He proceeded to try a doom drop on the right. It was denied in the main so it moved to the third. That’s not something a nydus can do. When that failed, he loaded up and moved to the watch tower. The mutas went for the medivac hiding on the left first, under the assumption that there was no possible way it could kill the stuff at the watch tower. He sees that medivac be killed, and he loads up his bio at the watch tower into 2 medivacs and abandons the tank. For some reason he sent them to do a drop in the main. I killed it all for free, plus a medivac and some bio near his fourth that he was using to clear creep. What on Earth. What the flipping heck is this guy thinking.
This is objectively some of the worst RTS gameplay I have ever seen, yet it’s enough to be Masters-1 with Terran. Terran is an “easy-street” race like Protoss, but just a little bit harder. That player could not get M1 with Zerg. There is no possible way.
Terran’s hyper-efficiency when defending dishes out free MMR to players who could not get it otherwise. It’s the same exact thing as Protoss who mass cannons and shield batteries and F2 a giant carrier ball. There is no substantial difference.
Only one has to work, or even be a threat. The Nydus is, like BC tac jump (which though I don’t like it is basically what makes the unit viable), warp in, recall and Mass Recall, are all problems because they effectively invalidate defender’s advantage. Map folding abilities are bad in general, and theyre even more problematic when you can transport your entire army across the map in an instant.
Which is why the nydus worm’s cost should be cost prohibitive, because it can transport an entire ground army across the map in an instant. It’s obscenely effective, and very strong as it is. Removing even one of the restrictions on it currently would result in it being completely broken. There was a reason they had to put a cool-down on the nydus network’s spawning capabilities in the first place, and it was because it was to strong to not have a cool down matching the build time. The only way around that is to have a 2nd nydus network, which frankly really isn’t needed.
My man, you have 14 seconds to react to it. If I ignored a reaper for 14 seconds, I would lose. That puts the nydus in the same strength category as a single reaper but with the resource-cost of a battlecruiser.
The nydus itself doesn’t even do anything (unlike a BC). It transports units, which means the true cost of the attack is even greater. If you summed up the total cost, it’s probably in the ballpark of 3 BCs to do the nydus attack.
A nydus doesn’t even move like a reaper does. All you have to do is right-click on it. That’s it. That’s all. We are talking about some of the most lazy players in the existence of SC2 players. Being aware of their own base and right clicking on a static building, within a 14 second window, is too much to ask of these people.
We’re supposed to pretend that an immovable attack that can be reliably denied, and has a guaranteed negative investment when reliably denied, is in the same strength category as BC’s, doom drops, etc. That is legitimately crazy. You couldn’t stop even a single reaper with a single right click.
Reapers and nydus come out at very different times, often with very different things occuring.
This is frankly a very silly example to use for numerous reasons, not the least of which is the fact that at the time nydus worms come in you’re often dealing with a much larger travel time due to the additional base count alone, not to mention the fact that your army is often on the other side of the map, either attacking their base or defending your own expansion, or sometimes both depending on the level you play at.
Your natural production will rarely if ever be enough to deal with a nydus due to the production times alone - though admittedly, to some extent this is dependent on when you place the nydus worm down, the race you play, and where the nydus worm is spawned. What is in a nydus then makes it even more difficult to clear up if it gets up.
There is a reason that nydus worms are frequently used, and it’s because they work.