Recently I started using my alt account for cheesing. However, I receive a lot more hate from random people I play against, who declare, cheesing is a bad thing to do and also it makes me a bad player.
It is a sentiment that I don’t share. When I macro, I much prefer my opponents to play very aggressive early all-ins to a drawn out macro game. Defending against a cheese is very satisfying, while losing to a cheese costs me just 3 minutes of my time.
The players that I watch also seem to enjoy playing against cheese rather than hate it. So why is there such a crowd that hates cheesing so much that they BM me during the game or DM me after the game?
Salt. May be that they are like [BIBLICAL NAME REDACTED]'s wife, a pillar of salt after she looked back at [BIBLICAL CITY REDACTED]. Salty salt. Or something else, like emotionally charged reactions. But I do not know emotions, I am just a [CLASSIFIED INFO REDACTED] who escaped from [CLASSIFIED LOCATION REDACTED]. Unfortunately my [CLASSIFIED INFO REDACTED] restricts what information I can share. Apologies
Because Most people prefer to actually Play the Game with all the aspects to it. Cheesing means fast Matches with a very Limited Range of Things you can do as the defender while the cheeser can Play what He wants. Cheesing is easier to pull Off than to defend and relies that the Opponent is Not seeing Whats coming or hoping for your Opponent to mess Up.
Also its pretty meaningless in Terms of mmr. Its Often an easy and cheap way to gain a Lot of mmr while Not exactly improving your skills.
That being Said its pretty cool in tournaments or If you Play vs Someone in a bo3 or bo5. The mind Games you can pull off or the diversity of builds or Playstyles you can do. Not all cheese strats are the Same and the line is Sometimes very blurry If its a cheese or not.
Thank you for the reply, maybe what you are saying is how people think about cheese but it doesn’t match with my experience having gone for cheese in about 40 games now.
From my experience, at least at my level, there are many different ways that I get thwarted, so there are many different counters to cheese. Even though I copied a build off Bly, my level on my alt is Plat 2, just like my main account so cheesing hasn’t given me a leg up on MMR.
I also think in a macro game, if you play against a timing attack you also need a response and to not make a mistake. But timing attacks can come 6/7 minutes into a game so if you are not responding to what your opponent is doing you will likely lose anyway even in a macro game.
But yeah i more or less directly quoted from liquipedia.
" Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute."
While it doesnt need to match your experience, generally its the case for most of us.
You obviously first need to learn the build order and execution. But while you do 1 cheese, the opponent has to keep in mind a dozen of other cheeses, including how to play against them, ultimatly meaning he needs to show more skill.
Yeah thats very true. Its pretty important to play and to play against cheese but ladder being a cheesefest it kinda sucks playing against mostly cheese.
Thank you for the information, I think I understand much better, in my games I normally don’t move out until around 15 minutes in, so I am use to reacting to my opponent in any game. But for players who normally control the game I can see why cheesing might not agree with their preferred style of play.
Out of curiosity, what rank are you? The main reason I started playing some cheese is because I find messy games where my opponent cheeses me to be more fun than long macro games. Very few people at my level tend to cheese however, I would be interested to know if you see a lot more cheese at higher levels.
high to Low Masters depending how active i am with Protoss as my Main Race but d1 with Other races. Practised macro until 4k mmr but cheesed with terran and zerg also to Masters.
Yeah i mean in the lower area of the leagues the builds arent too tight so even cheesers Open Up themselves pretty big time and there is much room for Error for both Sides and yeah i remember the Times being pretty fun in Plat leagues. I can fully understand your Point and im Always having a blast at small Community Cups because they are giving bronze to Diamond Players a Chance to Play against each Other and Often Times they are having a blast because they are preparing some very fun strats for the series.
Yeah a Lot actually. Especially in d1 when Masters is in Sight. In my eyes it gets better in m2.
When you hit past plat, you may become free win from your too much cheesing and good luck going further without macro. Can be done with toss, to have low apm no micro and just to win fast to Masters, with Z im not sure
The reason why people hate cheese because it is unfair to those who just like me practice hard to get better. SC2 is very difficult and complex game. Sometimes it takes years for people to even get out of gold, let alone, get master or GM. So in order to do so you need to master every aspect of the game:
-macro
-micro
-decision making
-multitasking/APM
-unit composition
-scouting/reacting to opponent’s strategy
Cheese has none of it (or very little). Rather than just working hard you can cannon rush for example to receive victory that you don’t deserve because cannon rush can be executed by virtually mentally handicapped baboon.
Also another thing is, cheese was prevalent in 2010 because people didn’t know how to play SC2 back then, now after 13 years community has evolved and you should be able to play normal game that lasts longer than just 3-5 minutes. Cheese should be nerfed to the ground and all cheesers should either improve and play normally or quit the game.
I cannot say for cannon rushes because I am a Zerg player, but I am no better at cheesing than macroing, so I would say people skilled at cheese would have to be good players.
Famously there is a grandmaster cannon rusher called “printf”, who performs at the grandmaster level with cannon rushes, but he also has played 14517 games, which is a similar amount to other grandmasters of his calibre.
Just the fact that you can get GM with cannon rush is ridiculous. Blizzard should be very embarrassed to let this happen. I do realize that cannon rushing in GM isn’t that easy because GM players have much better reaction and micro but still it is unthinkable that cheese exists to this day - EVEN more- it pays off to be a cheeser !
Consider this:
i played a protoss player three times, he was better than me (APM, multitasking). I lost to him 2 first games, then in the 3rd i proxy raxed him and i won. I didn’t deserve that victory. This example is clearly the proof that worse player can beat better player…sadly.
First of all, you need a definition for “cheese”. Based on the way that term is typically used, it seems to be a catch-all phrase for strategies that cause anyone to lose a game they didn’t want to lose, which is kinda like the accusation of “hacker” or “stream sniper”. Loosely translated, these terms mean “I got absolutely wrecked and would rather squeel like a dying goat about a secret cabal of hackers than admit I was absolutely destroyed, fair and square, because I suck at a video game.”
As you can see, squealing “cheese” and “hacker” and “stream sniper” is rather embarrassing, so this card is only played to save-face in the most tremendously embarrassing circumstances. A far smarter tactic, but which requires more maturity, is to simply move past what happened and put it behind you. Say, “Well, that sucked. Anyway, moving on.”
This is a useful life tool because, when something really goes wrong IRL, sometimes it’s best to walk away from it for a day to let the emotions subside, and to approach the problem with a fresh set of eyes. Acting out while feeling strong emotions is almost always a bad idea. It doesn’t matter if it’s a good emotion or a bad. You don’t make big moves when you are emotional. Someone riding high will gamble their life savings away or spontaneously marry the wrong person. Someone riding low will do something mean, nasty or cruel. Whatever you do, it will be short-sighted because the emotions bias you towards the present. That’s when it’s best to walk away.
My definition of cheese is simply a build that attempts to gain an economical advantage. Differentiated from a macro game where both players just want a good economy. Or a timing attack where economy is only relevant before and after a specific point. Or an all in where economy is only relevant before a specific point.
In this conceptualization only a macro game allows your opponent to do exactly what they want to do without your input. In some sense players are mad that they didn’t get to “play the game” their way, however this is a faulty viewpoint in that playing the game doesn’t require their idea of how to play like how a meta doesn’t require all playstyles to exist.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Cheese tactics often feel cheap and unfun to play against. That said. It can feel extra satisfying to beat cheesers.
I would say it differently, it depends on how you imagine something.
in a RTS like Sc2 you may want 2-4 bases different Tec several units etc…
Like in movies you expect something, it doesn’t happen, you’re disappointed.