When do you scout terran?

After the first pylon or after gateway? I’ve noticed that terran pulls the most cheese by far. Sure I get some cheese from protoss, but that’s about %50 of the time where as terran is %80 at the least. I try to play macro games, but terran usually doesn’t want to. If I scout after gateway the wall is up, and the only information I get is “oh look he has a barracks, and two depots!”

Here is an adjustment that will help you with your first probe scout the terran base you should know that he is making a barracks and depo check to see if he is making his second base. If not more than likely its a cheese.

Also with a 2nd probe scout your 3 base locations both locations to check for proxy attack do it everygame get in a habit and it will help you out! Cheers

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It doesn’t matter too much. You can even scout as late as picking up your gas. Just keep in mind the later you scout, the less likely you will see how many gases they take. Also, memorize the time it takes to complete a racks, because they could be proxying another one outside your base as well. It’s complicated

Scouting in plat league is a bit difficult because often times people just play weird stuff (what CollegeWings wrote).
So what really helps is upgrading your multitasking and playing a little more aggressive (and be that 1-2 probes to scout with while you follow your build order perfectly).

And that is the 2nd problem: You probably don’t follow a solid build order 100% and that’s where it gets more complicated as you don’t have what the player advising you would expect but maybe doesn’t mention.

So rather think in defensive levels or steps that make your build more safe and you try to get rid of them or leave them out if possible to not fall behind too much.

  • pylon placement (be able to build a shield battery on the high ground near the 2nd base)
  • extra gateway (more stalkers vs. mass reaper or mass marines)
  • fast robo (vs. proxy marauders or proxy cyclones)
  • use of chronoboost (units vs. eco - are you behind or ahead?)
  • wall the reaper back door to deny scouting or flanking
  • pull your workers to catch units, then either attack or hold position or even retreat
  • production during a fight
  • more than 1 control group
  • be more aggressive with your first probe (better multitasking and micro; keep it alive at all costs!)

This is great advice! May I ask if there is any particular PvX build you would recommend for a… Gold 3 player (don’t laugh); also I will probably get demoted to Silver 1 as my MMR has decreased below the threshold. Cheers!

_gggreplays.com
–> Filter for a league higher than you and think mostly about basics (spending ressources, don’t get supply blocked).

Or - if you upload one of your replays (via _drop.sc --> post the link here), I can show you what I mean with basics.

Or this one (video: vibelol on YT):
_https://imgur.com/a/GoZ3O1o

First of all, thanks for doing this.
I have uploaded 3 replays

  • x_https://drop.sc/replay/13503682
  • x_https://drop.sc/replay/13503705
  • x_https://drop.sc/replay/13503683

Hey man @Sun, here is some advice for you. I will admit, I am only on the high end of diamond 2, but all this advice is valid to some extent. I’m going to probably get reamed for giving advice when I’m not in masters but I really couldn’t care less, so be it, if I can help you I will.

I’ll try to keep as much of it as brief as I can, taking into account for what may be useful information for a gold league player - there is no point in me going into exact timings or build orders, but may mention a few important basics.
The largest moral of the story, is that more sh!t counters less sh!t in 95% of fights at this level.

(P)Suntoucher VS (P)Денчик

Less important:
	-I would recommend that you learn to build a soft wall at the top if your ramp - its a good habbit to get into because as you creep up the ladder, players will punish you with adepts - they will get in and kill all your probes. A soft wall means a wall that you can fit a pylon or shield battery in to stop the adepts coming in, it can be placed and then cancelled when you are safe (a higher strategy, but just something to keep in mind)
	
	-I wouldn't recommend collosus in PvP, its not really in the meta often, but players will use them if they know their opponent is going for a large number of chargelots. I also wouldn't recommend disruptors at your level, the micro is not something you want to worry about
	
	-A second forge is also a good choice as your economy grows - you can then research multiple upgrades at a time

More important:
	-It is standard meta/practise in PvP that you build 2 gateways before taking your natural expansion - what you did is what is referred to a "fast expand" (except gateway before first gas) in PvP, or the more common standard opening for a PvZ and PvT. This way you can go for 2 units early instead of only 1. If you want to fast expand you should get a shield battery and a unit ASAP. Obviously this isnt much of a problem at your level, because players dont know exactly what they are scouting, but higher up you are guaranteed to be punished if you are not careful.
	
	-A good base line for all matchups is to build up to 8 gateways around the time you have 50 probes. 
	
	-Somewhere around the 6 minute mark you didn't produce any units for a few minutes, only tech. You need to be constantly building your army as your economy grows
	
	-Scouting is important - not so much in the early game of PvP but a bit later on. If you sent out an observer or hallucinated pheonix you could spot that your opponent is going for a mass air army, giving you the chance to either attack early or go for an air army yourself. Even sending in a unit before you commit your entire army so you know what your up against
	
	-There is no need to lose your entire army for nothing - its good to pick off a base, and then return home, while he rebuilds his base, you could continue to warp in units, expand, and ramp up production. You don't need to take a fight that favours your opponent
	
	-The standard PvP meta is immortals, archons and chargelots. It fits together well - you can spend excess minerals on zealots, and excess gas on archons - archons are an amazing unit
	
2020-03-10 - (P)ЗлойПингвин VS (P)Suntoucher
	
Less important:
	-Not much to say here, some stuff from previous game applies
	
More important:
	-Do not allow your opponent to steal your gas in PvP, it gives you a massive disadvantage. If your opponents probe is in your base and your not ready to take your gas yet, you can send a probe to the gas and place it on hold position to block him from stealing it.
	
	-If your not sure of what your opponent is doing, a shield battery in your mineral line by 4:00 is a good idea, it will protect you from an early oracle. You lost 16 probes so the game was essentially over from there. 
	
2020-03-10 - (P)Suntoucher VS (T)Karde

Less important:
	-You don't need to take your second gas before you expand in PvT
	
	-Having zealots so early in the game in PvT is not great, you would prefer some stalkers, since the majority of terran harrassment comes from the air (eg. liberator, drops, banhsee, battlecruiser). Zealots only come in handy once they have charge upgrade
	
	-If you have a heap of money in the bank, its worth building some stargates in the later game against terran, just in case they mass battlecruisers, then some tempests can help you out. He really didnt have much other than 10 battlecruisers
	
	-Try to take your 3rd base earlier - yours was around 7 minutes. More importantantly, I noticed you stopped building probes around 6:00 as your bases was mostly saturated - its not a crime to go over 16/16 - you can keep building probes and then transfer them to the fresh base when its ready. You didnt start remaking probes till around 11:00

More important:
	-You don't need a tech structure before you expand unless you are facing a highly comitted proxy. The key to winning as protoss against terran is to have the superior economy, adding a robo before expanding just slows down that process
	
	-Getting an observer out early was good, its important to know what your terran opponent is up to and where their army is, unfortunately it flew right into a turrent :D Its important to get another one. If you had, you may have thought to yourself, "Why isnt my opponent taking a 3rd?" ... Well ... because hes taking ninja bases, and you could have scouted for them and killed them
	
	-Make sure to keep producing units! For a long time you have alot of money in the bank and warpins ready to go.
	
	-Admittedly, you did a much better job of maxing out than your opponent, but you had the wrong army composition to win the fight. If a terran is not attacking you and not showing you anything, theres a good chance they are trying to mass battlecruisers. For at least half of the game you could have destroyed your opponent because he had nothing up until the point he had 10 battle cruisers

To get some amazing tips, go onto youtube and search for Vibe Bronze to GM Protoss. He’s a great teacher. I hope I was able to help.

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Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this —it’s really helpful as I did not even realise I was making so many mistakes.

Most important takeaways I think are that I need to keep training probes, scout better, to understand what I am up against. And also pick a good counter for my opponent.

Again, thanks, lots of really helpful information!

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You can reach masters (I’m not kiddin) without anything fancy, just focus on the basics: build probes, don’t get supply blocked, build army. I have no idea what I am doing when playing with my offraces but have quite high mmr due to this basic things. Most people bellow masters don’t go above 40-50 workers so if you play defensively and go to 60-70 workers (and spend your money)you will get up the ladder pretty fast

A good allround build is the gate gas core expand robo (add double gate for pvp) as you get acces to obs not to die to a random banshee or dt and it;s quite easy to scout with it plus the immortals who are your best friends: they shoot over anything, obliterate armored units and they take forever to die. If you have enough immortals you cannot be killed by a ground army. An all around strategy for all matches would be collosus-stalker-immortal with carriers added later (yes, I do believe collossus are good for pvp because they are quite user friendly and with 4-5 collossus and upgrades you pierce your way through anything clumped up). After building up the basics you can start experimenting with blink micro, forcefields, storm etc.

So, to summarize:

  1. Probes: aim to continously expand. Even if you cannot expand for diverse reasons, keep making them (sometimes I go even 60 probes on 2 bases and the moment I secured a 3rd, it’s already saturated) also, if you overmake probes when you take worker damage (such as a drop or ling runby) it would not be that severe since you already overmade them

  2. Don’t get supply blocked: watch replays and see when you get supply blocked cause you will see a pattern (I used to forget the 4th pylon on 2gate pvp and would produce only 1 unit of 2 gateways at the 2nd cycle lot of the games) and same as probes: overmake them. Once you go on 2+ bases you can drop 3-4 pylons at the time, even more. Elazer used to overmake overlords and be at 140/200 supply and he is a pro gamer.

  3. Make army (and upgrades): again, overkill is better than underkill: I go for 14 gates and 4-5 tech structures (robo/stargate) (I’m playing at 70-80 workers). if you think you need more to spend the money, make them. Making 14 gates instead of 8 or 5 tech instead of 2-3 differenciate a low gm from high gm, if you are bellow it will only help. Upgrades? Always 2+, go for shields, go for air attack, just spend the money. Money spent not efficient is better than money floating.

Bonus point, static defence. This will make your life way easier. When you go past 2 bases have at least 1 cannon in each mineral because an un microed runby or drop will attack the cannon first and buy you a lot of time and whenever floating money you can build them as well, build a ring around a dropable location in the main, against the main attack path to your 3rd & 4th. Don’t forget it’s preferable to build units instead of static def but again, static def is better than floating money.

I don’t follow a build order in mid masters :smiley: I have a general game idea and play complete reactively based on my scout. Posible old habbit from switching from Zerg as also I always out expand any opponent (at least in winning games)

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Thank you so much for all the great advices!

I think my games improved quite a bit. Still a long way to go, but I guess sticking to all the advices I got will help me further improve.

Cheers!