Watch this video. See if you can find a way to counter this composition in ZvT? (unit data is listed for comparison)

Zerg Discussion
1

After watch this video of the final fight at 1:10:00, I begin to think if there is an effective way to counter this composition in ZvT.
liberator + vikings + ghost + tanks. ( few marines)

Let’s list some numbers of the core units of two parties here:

T:

unit skill range
vikings A 9
liberators A 13 (after updating)
tanks A 13
ghost emp 10
steady Target 10

Z:

unit skill range
lurkers A 10
hydra A 6
broodlord A 10
spore crawler A 7
vipers abduct 9
para 8
infestor fungal 10
para 8

Suppose every units are in battle position and are ready for strike.
Think about the following possible confrontations, the consequences and the maneuver difficulties.

With sieged tanks and libs, it could be a bad idea to charge on ground first. So let’s start from the spell unit and air.

  1. Vipers parasite or abduct.
    with the same range ( para even shorter) as vikings.
    It means every abduct/para will suffer tons of missiles from vikings.
    Possible result: One viper trade for 1 viking /lib?
    Overlords for decoy? If you run a test, air units will actually prioritize the viper over overlords. So once in range, vipers will be under fire.
    In this process, even if T don’t do anything, vikings will automatically fire back the vipers in range.
    In contrast, if vikings snip vipers, if Z doesn’t react properly, it will be T’s free pick.

  2. Infestor fungal growth.
    It could be a good way to wear down the vikings or ghost.
    Suppose 6 ghost and 6 infestors strike each other.
    Fungal growth , cost 5 ghosts 30 hp, needs 4 success strike to kill them that is in the case of no meds.
    EMP, without energy, infestors are totally nullified. They can’t contribute even a tiny dmg as a drone.

  3. Using broodlord to strike ghost?
    Compare their speed.
    Ghost can retreat, broodlord however will be easily slaughtered by the vikings ( R9 and faster)

  4. Corruptors are not only over ranged but also hard countered by the vikings.

In all scenarios, I don’t see any case is in favor of Z.
Please remember, in very late game, such decisive battle is inevitable. We have to compare each parties’ counterpart head to head.

I believe in a balanced game, any composition suppose to have a counter. However, I don’t see an effective counter here.

You may don’t agree. Please prove it and list your strategy in this case.
There will be a hundred ways to defend the race you support, but please speak with numbers objectively.
Lack of skills is not persuasive. If Z needs triple the clicks to rival one click of T, it doesn’t seem to be an fair comparison.

From this situation, what I believe is that Z’s anti-air indeed needs to be strengthened with new units or enhancing current units.
What is your idea?

2 Likes
2

I haven’t watched the whole match or video, so I’m mostly just commenting on the end game fight.

What a beautiful game. Reminds me of the 2018 stalemates. Problem is Zerg noticeably weaker while Terran late game has gotten slightly stronger. This fight is a great showcase of how weak Zerg’s end game turtling has gotten (some changes were necessary but others were sad). Just imagine if there were infested terrans. Zerg would probably be able to break that, especially with Dark’s infestor count.

Some things I would note about Dark’s composition:

  1. Too many infestors. Not sure what led up to this point, but there’s just too many… He could have used some to flank from the other side too, though I doubt he would have won.
  2. He could’ve used corruptors, and a lot of it. Especially considering the viking/liberator count + no thors for air splash damage. Corruptors do a good job of tanking and killing air units.
  3. There was only one viper. Not sure what happened to the others, but it made Maru’s job much easier. If there were multiple vipers, Maru would have a harder time microing his vikings to snipe brood lords.
  4. His composition is extremely difficult to control, especially against a composition like that. Hats off to him for trying to fight it.

Some notes about Maru’s composition:

  1. Easy to micro. He just has to watch his ghosts, slowly inch his siege units forward, and use his vikings to snipe brood lords. At the very least, this is significantly easier to micro than Dark’s. He just has to wait for Dark to pull the trigger while he slowly inches his siege units.
  2. Liberators are OP. This is a primary example of that. I’ve said this once before, but this is a perfect example of liberators being hero units. When they hit that number, they will evaporate small units and trade super efficiently against any medium/large sized unit that dare try to walk into those zones.
  3. Why isn’t he using his 2.2k minerals? Does he have no more production left? Turrets? Chokepoints? I dunno, maybe he needed to invest all his attention to the final fight.

Dark’s win conditions were to do to something like kill all the liberators or kill all the vikings. Maru just had to slow push and hope for the best. Honestly, even if Dark won that, could he have gotten enough gas to make corruptors? Terran can just float their structures away and force a tie, unless there’s a different rule set. As is usually said about many late game compositions, air superiority wins games. Dark just didn’t have it. Zerg has the hardest late game composition to control, and while I would have said they have the strongest composition in 2018/19, it’s hard to say now. Every race has a chance at winning end game fights now.

3

Yea if terran ever gets to transition into ghost mech you become disadvantaged for the rest of the game.

1 Like