The Horners P2 Build Order Inquiries

Reputation holdover from before the rework that added them as part of it, I guess? I’d say they used to be pretty comparable before that.

Dehaka is pretty similar I’d wager, better to build the tech buildings over basically anything else.

Ultimately, yeah, that’s the sum of basically any conversation here. But in the ever pointless sake of efficiency!

I will note, despite the overall look of the two build orders seemingly the same. The “galleon then cc” streamlines better. It allows the player to start on Armory and the techs thereafter. While the former technically did have a 50gas advantage, it actually translate into inability to use it (at any given point, since the latter actually opens up the Armory, the level 1 weapon, Starport research, etc.)

It is a small but a nuanced difference for those who wish to optimize. Anything deviating from it, such as 2 galleons, or more than ~200min wasted on units delay that 7min saturation and tech even further.

Swann isn’t slower actually. Neither is Abathur if I recall correctly. 7min saturation is about as slow as any can get usually. Although, I’ll run some tests again (cuz I don’t want to just talk from memory. That would be just a random opinion with no evidence.) And I’ll add the results soon.

Here are the results:
Drill opener
6:53 fully saturated, 7min bank 1020/1198, 48/54
Tech/Structure: 3 supply, 4x100 vespene drones, armory, 2x drill research, factory.

Factory opener
6:23 fully saturated, 7min bank 1945/1218, 48/54
Tech/Structure: 3 supply, 4x10vd, armory, 1 research ongoing, factory.

Swann is actually quite a bit faster by comparison to HH (still on the slow side of course). As regardless the opening build order of choice, the Vespene Drones alone are a hefty investment (without mastery). This is also done under solo condition where some resources had to be devoted to ‘turret, repair, scv not mining, etc.’. There was no loss of SCVs or turret, and all turrets were salvaged.

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Guilty as charged.
Edit: Thanks for the responses everyone gonna try each of them out.

Here are the results for Abathur.
Spine opener
6:15 fully saturated, 7min bank 1465/1208, 52/52
Tech/Structure: 5 overlords, roach warren, 2 spines, 3 brutalisks

Brutalisk opener
6:15 fully saturated, 7min bank 1215/1244, 52/52
Tech/Structure: 5 overlords, roach warren, Lair, 3 brutalisks

Please note that there is quite a bit of time that can be shaved off for Abathur especially. For both Swann and Abathur, I have not used 2-base for a very long time. So the build order itself isn’t as smooth as it should be. However, the data is there to demonstrate the same point.

One other thing to note is that for Abathur’s Brutalisk opener, I did not use the suggested ‘Spore opening’ but went Roach Warren => Roach => Brutalisk. This slows down the biomass gathering, thus the First Brutalisk, thus the thereafter timings (especially when my crappy macro is compounding the issue). Regarding the macro (cuz it’s hilariously bad), in reviewing the replay at least 5 drones weren’t even mining and out in the map on smoke break :sweat_smile:. So the 7min bank is far less than it should be.

That’s still ingrained in me with HH. A-Gall now costing 150 instead of 200 just seems like one of those “black friday blowout deals” that’s too good to NOT take advantage of!

Huh. Didn’t realize how fairly close to on the nose that I was. Duly noted.

A future math project of yours might to show making Han units for the significant other bonus isn’t worth it, my intuition says one is better off just making more Horner units. But I haven’t done the math.

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I’m almost certain it isn’t worth it (but again with context).

The context being that you don’t need Han’s units for anything (like say the boosted attack speed from death effect, or some small splash against mass zerglings, etc.)

The key to it all is the fact Horner’s units have a ton of bulk to begin with, having 0.5% per supply (or 0.65% with full mastery) just isn’t worth it for “more bulk”, when you’re not losing them to begin with.

The math is roughly 800mineral for 16supply worth of Han’s units, which would be somewhat equivalent/competing to getting the ‘next’ Horner’s unit. 16 x 0.65% = 10.4% more HP. So you get the following:

  • Sov BC 900HP vs 994HP (900 x 1.104)
  • Ast Wraith 400 vs 442HP
  • Dei Viking 350 vs 386HP
    What you’re really getting is a very minimal amount of ‘extra bulk’ for not having that additional push power.

The long and the short of it all is that getting Han's units is more for their death effect boost than for their Significant Other bulk increase for Horner's units. There is also the bug issue to be taking into consideration, where 'loss of Han's units' can lead to 'lost HP of Horner's units'.

Fear and I agree on this one :laughing:.

Hans units for the SO bonuses aren’t worth it but probably usually are worth it for early game flood waves (zerglings etc), aerosol stim always, fear affect sometimes and Widow mine spawn camping occasionally. Can build Reapers against Classic Infantry and Raiding Party if you want (but don’t have to as these are 2 of the easiest comps anyway).

P2 can really cherry pick which Han units to add to compliment the Horner army but should always at least add Hellions as Aerosol stim is just that good (and incidentally one of the reasons that P1 is better).

I’m not sure that I agree about Han units competing with Horner units for resources though as the limiting factor with Horner units is usually Gas? Might as well spend the spare minerals on something right?

What? Impossible! Mr. Whalins and Mr. Octo agreeing on something?! :astonished:

That is right, you don’t need Han’s units for anything other than breaking rocks or maybe early game. Horner’s units can carry the rest of the way.

I like to bring in Han’s units because that’s just my play style and always found mixed units to be my go to build (even with other COs). Even in late I’m still producing Reapers / Hell bats / Hellions because I have so much mineral hanging (mineral dump).

Not sure if, we can say the same for P1 HH? Attack improves 0.5% per supply or per unit? Only time I would bring in some Horner’s units, P1, is facing air comp.

I honestly think whoever designed HH or was responsible for the final release f’d up.

It quite literally make more sense for flimsy Han’s units to gain more HP, when they have quite the fast attack speed to begin with (and they have the stim death naturally with research). Vice versa, Horner’s units are few but packs a bigger punch, so makes more sense to “get more attack speed” rather than more HP when they already have so much.

(As for the sparing minerals, the context is “if you are opting for Horner units then should you get Han units to compliment”. Then answer is no as an optimized build will always have no spare minerals until far late game. I’m just gonna leave it at that cuz correcting the discussion is way too much a chore.

Obviously it goes without saying, if you have spare and want to make them, sure?!? Then again, more often than not you’ll always see players make 5 galleons but don’t produce out of them, or make a mass then move out… essentially all the inexperienced moves.)

Improper macro leading to “spare minerals”, this is a direct result of that. When you actually look at pro coop players like LilA (rest his retired soul lol), you don’t float them at all until you’re practically done the map.

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What did I say about essay writing? Get to the point!

Are we still talking about P2? Or in general? I didn’t say anything about optimization just style. Getting Horner’s unit depends on how fast you can produce gas and producing mineral is faster than gas. You will have minerals floating.

I watched your HH p2 replay, you were floating about 6000 minerals near the end. You brought in a BC whenever you had enough gas. You could had made Han units but you didn’t need them.

EDIT: If your definition of optimization is floating near to no minerals / resources, than maybe we should not get full saturation on our resource lines.

He’s playing Raynor not P2 Horner. I usually don’t float minerals when I play Raynor. If I do that means my units aren’t dying or it is late game.

He’s still posting on Reddit.

The second portion of the previous post after the:

is meant to be a separate discussion (that I didn’t want to include quote from certain somebody, as to further derail the discussion). Sorry for the confusion but I can see why (as I clicked on ‘reply’ to you).

As for the mineral float (it was only because the test is meant to be strictly towards Sovereign BC (anything additional would render the dmg analysis moot, stupid mod doing their handy work for taking down actual content for a few choiced words btw lmfao).

I think in practice, if the player is focusing on Horner’s units regardless prestige, that float is only going to accumulate after mid-game (~12min mark). I’ll test a game here and see how that works. Regardless though, HH will inevitably float minerals, so adding Han’s units can definitely happen (I think the focus of Falcon’s question was more for 'is it worth it to get them in place of Horner’s for the SO benefit).

I just did another RtK to test HH, as P2. So yeah, you don’t float ‘minerals’ until ~12min (which if you take a look at the replay, part of that could be used to max out supply cap and part of that could be for Galleon + Han’s units). Game ends at 14.5min ish.

So definitely, once you’re practically done the map, you’ll start to float minerals and add Han’s units. However, any time before this, devoting to that is only as a map/comp dependent problem. Deviating from that means you’ll have less Horner’s units. This timing will be similar in any prestige (perhaps at ~10min for non-p2, but mostly it isn’t too relevant in the context of what we’re discussing here).

Hope this helps :smiley: (christ, realized I didn’t post this link and just left lmao)

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You should be careful as to what you say on forums. Disagreeing and not liking someone is one thing but if you insult people on forums, mod will take action and they did take actions. Next time you may get a temp ban.

I think both you and Mr Octo provide some good insights into game play. I even test the things you both say. Sometimes both of you disagree, which is fineeeee. So Don’t get yourself ban!

Ok can I see what you did? And floating mineral is how much exactly, by your definition? 3-4? When I’m floating about 1.5k, I say that’s already too much.

Edited: Thanks.

This run was more polished. Nice. :+1:

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Let’s be real, coop forum is poorly ran and was poorly ran. I really could care less about not posting on here :stuck_out_tongue: . Posting less here just means more game time :person_shrugging:.

In the grant scheme of forum, discord, and platforms alike, I’d say coop forum is one of the worst. People who instigate problems are not dealt with, basic user interface (such as image, links, etc. lmao you know exactly what I mean) are restricted, randomly granted, then randomly taken away (temp and/or permanently). Absolutely 0 recourse to any of it, trust me I tried lol.

The policy/practice of cracking down on a few choiced words, but taking down entire good content is just terrible. Let’s be real here, if it was the words themselves or that they actually cared. Take my most recent topic-taken-down as example. They could have very well edited with [removed by mod], and literally 2 sentences would be removed. Instead, their action is to take down entire topic and further suppress content, in the name of “civil discussion”. Can’t exactly have a discussion with removed content of said discussion haha.

Well they removed your thread and a few posts from other threads, that was real. Anyways don’t say I didn’t warn you, Mr Whalins :slightly_smiling_face:

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Appreciate the thought man

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Have you tried upgraded Widow Mines vs the banes/scourges?
Even just a couple of Widow mines (and mag mines) should make short work of piled up banes/scourges, especially if you spread them like breadcrumbs in the AIs path.

To add onto this, on maps where Terrans want to throw nukes at you, instead of using your Mag Mines + a Turret, use a pair of Widow Mines + a Turret. Much more automated, and you don’t need to keep a constant eye on if you need to drop another set of Mag Mines.

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