The Horners P2 Build Order Inquiries

Do you guys still get reaper upgrades? Do you mass wraiths or rush straight to BCs? I can hold my own as P2 but it’s nowhere near broken as P1 early-mid game and that’s where I struggle especially against bane-scourge comps. I would love to know how you guys play the prestige. It ain’t the best but it’s one of the few that lets me afford a (mostly) air armada late game.

I’d say get the Reaper upgrades, or Hellions depending on the flavour of the map and enemy comp. You lose a very small amount of ships, but you’ll benefit through the whole game for the mineral dump; unless the map is long enough to get a full fleet by the end, but even then it’ll make things smoother to that point.

Even if it’s not that hard, I think we should not have to guess which commander you’re talking about.

edit: thanks for fixing that.

my bad forgot to add H&H to the title.

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I don’t even get Reapers on P2 because there’s not enough Galleons to replenish them quickly if they die, and it’s much harder to get a critical mass in the first place. Thus, I go full Hellion/Hellbat, with Widow Mines for air compositions.

And while I do go mass Wraiths, I think rushing a BC before other air units can be a good idea, as its high healthpool and ability to fire on the move allows it to start clearing most maps by itself the moment it’s out. Getting it also improves Galleon survivability, as it can tank Scourges for them (even more so with a large army of Mira’s units), and Fusion Core itself is needed for the hangar upgrade anyway (having the fighters further helps with keeping air units alive).

P2 is all about positioning Magmines, getting vision and casting those early Spacestation and Fleet. Once you’ve got your first set of Wraiths, you’re pretty set.

In general, they only struggle against ClassicGroundToss due to Dragoons hitting far harder in higher numbers. Even air compositions aren’t bad (as you can clump them up for your mags).

I skip Han’s units altogether even off of 12-workers, mostly cuz you can get by. That is only because you need to be very aware of the map’s timings. I’d say make a few if you find transitioning difficult during early game. However, objectively speaking they don’t have an issue.

Against Baneling/Scourge I’d look at landed Viking+Hellbat on short missions or hellbat+BC on long missions (as the BCs get pretty massive health if you have the Significant Other Mastery and can Warp away before getting Critical Scourge damage).

Obviously always include a few Hellions and attack them before big engagements.

On P2, I start with double Galleon into double Hellion, Gas, Expand CC, then tech from there. My sky builds depend upon what I’m facing. If it’s heavy air, I’ll get Vikings first and balance them out with Wraiths and a pair of BCs. If it’s mixed, I’ll mass up Wraiths. If it’s ground, get as many Wraiths as possible and get BCs when possible. But I always, always, always try to keep my S/O Bonuses hovering 50/50.
If the enemy is mostly ground, Hellions. If the enemy has a lot of burst, Hellbats. If the enemy is swarmy or Bane/Scourge, Hellbats. Mostly air, make the switch from Hellion to Reaper. But most games I’m on Hellion, Hellbat, or a mix.

If I’m trying to optimise the opening I’d say actually going Single galleon on maps with rocks as 2 hellions+1 galleon is a good rock breaking team.

Only on contested expansions would I go for double Galleon to wear down the defenders with no losses.

I don’t even bother with Reapers on P2, let alone their upgrades.

I typically go mass Wraiths.

I’m kinda surprised by the general apathy to Han’s units in P2, granted I haven’t played it a whole lot, but you’ve still got the 2 galleons and spare minerals to use with them. Plus the hp boost for the core army by having them around.

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Kind of missing 1/3rd of H&H’s toolkit by skipping Han units (SFPs get their own category).

Definitely need Hellbats and/or Hellions at least.

Maybe it’s okay in Hard and usually okay in Brutal but against tough compositions and against many basic mutators you’ll have a tough time skipping basic units that add so much to the army (hellbat/hellion on death effects are just so strong which is one reason incidentally why P1 is the better choice).

Coop is all about what you can get away with without taking every step. Cuz those skipped steps either provide a different style of gameplay or an advantage for the map.

Nothing wrong with Han’s units but HH as a whole is quite monotonous. I think that’s why any time players can skip out on it, many choose to. Cuz playing Galleons every game is kinda… lol.

I just go double Galleon because we can only have 2 regardless. By the time I have 2 Galleon, 2 Hellion, 1 Gas, and the rocks are down, I have more than enough minerals for a CC. But that’s just me.

This might be more P1 specific (who uses minerals better than P2) but the glacial starting eco of H&H (is any commander slower?) makes me build CC next to rocks as my second structure (after supply).

Then I build galleon next to rocks and the 2 hellions who can break the close gas rocks first.

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I’ve not tried that yet, but it sounds better as long as mines are placed right to take out the first wave.

The only commander with a slower eco is Abathur when played well… :rofl:

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That’s the opening build provided by sc2coop.

It doesn’t make a difference if the player goes:

[CC first => Galleon => Hellion x 2] or [Galleon => CC => Reapers x 2],

the results are essentially the same (taking into any micro/macro variances).

2CC, 2Supply, 1Galleon, 2units (Hellions vs Reapers, 100min extra).
50-52/62 supply ~7:00 to ~7:10 for full saturation.

1885/1504 for the CC then Hellions opener
1965/1460 for the Galleon then CC Reapers opener

Both time adjusted for 7min.

The ~100min difference comes from the cost of the units. The slight gas difference come from CC opener’s build order (as the cost of Galleon comes slightly later, the first 2 Geysers go up slightly quicker). Overall, the difference between the 2 make 0 impact in actual gameplay.

If there was one thing to note, there was no proper SCV transfers in my tests. I allow main to be fully saturated before saturating expansion (in terms of minerals), but prioritized gas construction and saturation ASAP in both. Even with transfers of SCVs, this wouldn’t make a difference as the SCV saturation difference between the 2 is ~9sec (which is half of a SCV… meaning at any given moment, any transfer is the same to optimize the 14 => 17 => 19 saturation break points).

Swann is slower, I’d think. He takes sooooo long to get online.

But honestly CC first vs Galleons first is really up to the map and player preference, imo.

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[shrug] I guess if it works anyways, then it works. We have people who ignore Mengsk ESOs, Abathur UE, Karax towers, Swann Hercs, etc., so it’s not absolutely vital that every tool in the toolbox gets utilized.

For me, I make some Hellions/Bats since they tank well enough early on. At least to keep Horner units from dying.

True bit as I specified the eco of H&H and not general ramp up I feel okay quoting this:

“Swann builds SCV’s, vehicles and starships 20% faster than other Commanders. Factories and Armories do not cost vespene gas.”

I would assume with zerg lava mechanic that Abathur would saturate faster?