Terran takes 8 slots of top 10 in korea

General Discussion
21

:rofl:

I used to queue against these guys all the time. I’ve beaten Maru, Byun, Probe, Puck, Snute, PartinG. PartinG once used a proxy robo cannon rush against me and which he later went on to beat sOo with in the Code S. There is a reason why I can queue a game after not having played for months and instantly clap a 5500 mmr terran, which is what I just did the other day. The game wasn’t even close.

The lack of consistency in design is one of the game’s biggest flaws. If you are Zerg, you need 400 apm to beat a Protoss who is 80. A Protoss can mass cannons, shield batteries, and void rays, and you have to spend about 16,000 clicks (no joke) to beat him. Meanwhile he sits there are watches youtube on his phone.

I’ve never praised Serral. My stance on him has been consistent from start to finish. He’s the best player at the moment, but that’s not saying much because SC2 is dead, all the talent left, and the game isn’t drawing in new talent. He’s basically where Idra and Snute were back in the day, but they actually had to beat difficult opponents.

That’s factually false. The more casual-friendly the game has become, the more its popularity has declined.

Nope, Idra could pull in ten times the viewers of almost any other streamer. His viewership was so flipping high it’s higher than modern day tournaments. Letting him retire was a colossal marketing mistake, and they did it because some whiny EU crybabies were offended over some comments he made on the teamliquid forums.

That’s because they have bigger fish to fry. Video games are for kids. Why on Earth be a puppet on a stage, for the hopes of winning $100k, when you can just earn that much as a doctor or lawyer or scientist as a guaranteed salary? Anyone with a brain abandoned SC2 pro play long ago. All the smart people left. That’s why the pro scene is so bad right now. These people are a bunch of APM spammers who learned the game through rote memorization. They couldn’t create a new style/strategy if their life depended on it.

Do you remember MC? He was the Protoss who made 2 base immortal sentry allins a thing. Those styles died off in LotV because of the ravager, or so everyone thought. MC later on made a quick come back and did a GSL run where clowned on a bunch of zergs with … 2 base immortal sentry. The style died off because nobody could figure out how to make it work and MC wasn’t there to show them how so they couldn’t just copy/paste the build into their brain.

The strategic diversity of the game is zero because everyone who plays sc2 in the pro scene is an APM spammer with zero brains. The way they approach SC2 is like playing the piano. There really isn’t much difference. It’s sort of a Jazzy way of playing the piano, where the tunes are a little more dynamic, but it’s all just rote memorization of the same rhythms that you’ve been doing on repeat, like a robot, for a decade.

Hitman had an out-of-meta strategy and he absolutely destroyed Elazer way back when. That’s the sort of strategic diversity that used to exist. Now zergs do hatch gas pool into a third in 99.9% of games with almost no variation. They might vary the timing of the gas or whether they go queens before third or third before queens.

Life by comparison absolutely clowned on the best EU protoss at Blizzcon with quick 1 base strategies. It wasn’t even close. Then life got slapped sos who won blizzcon using hidden base strategies. There is zero strategic diversity in the modern sc2 pro scene.

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22

It is impossible, Batz forgot to check his manual and delivered:

I have to remind you, that APM spam does not exist. You proved that to me a month ago.

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23

Forum trolls don’t have the IQ to understand the underlying concept of a euphemism. My argument is perfectly congruent and if you can’t tell then that’s a you problem. “APM spammer” is a euphemism – the concept that the speed at which you play drastically outweighs the quality of the play. That is perfectly congruent with my past arguments. The term “APM spam” as it was used in past arguments was not a euphemism but a literal statistic that can be measured and quantified.

APM spammers glean free wins by spamming large amounts of low quality actions, which is better than slower but higher quality actions. How fast you get the actions out is much more important than the quality of those actions. This causes APM to have a high correlation with performance. In this context, an APM spammer is a person who prioritizes speed over quality.

APM spam in the other context was the idea that APM spam is totally random and useless, and because it’s random and useless, APM wasn’t causal with performance, which is absolutely absurd. The idea that APM spam doesn’t help you to win is absolutely absurd and that concept of APM spam is absolutely unequivocally fictional.

Because speed is more important than quality, spamming APM is the primary way to win, which means it is the primary driving factor behind performance. The idea that players input totally nonsense actions into the game, for no reason at all and certainly not to help them win, is a totally fictional concept that has no basis in reality.

24

…

When pigs fly are you one?

How is this the players’ fault??? This is what they are given to play with. When I see these widow mine builds im starting to agree how stupid of design it is but all these stupid designs came with HotS and LotV like disruptor, like BC TJ.

Elazer became better in recent years around Serral’s WCS and years after still not on such level but still from the top foreigners. I do not remember there was Elazer back then I remember nerchio.

Life did destroy Lilbow and it was an embarrassment, no foreigner from EU played that bad but Life was a beast.

Serral was not at peak before 2018, that is 2017 and 2016 he would have a hard time beating Gumiho with mech but those years (2018 onward) came and he did it against all not just terran, quite normal he wasnt at his peak in earlier time no one is arguing that

25

people like Terran it’s pretty normal

26

would you please help me practice~! I am ladder shy and would love a practice partner even though you’d clearly beat me easily

27

It was the diversity of builds that was impressive. Life was opening 14/14 against protoss. Opening anything but 17 hatch is suicide vs apetoss. None of the current players have the strategic capacity to figure out how to beat a protoss with 14/14 these days. That’s why they all spam 17 hatch. It’s the only way apm spammers can win games.

Part of the issue is that blizzard took a larvae away from the queen and gave it to the hatchery, which was a massive blow to pool first builds. They’ve buffed hatch first builds even more in recent days. For example, creep coming from a hatchery is much faster. That makes you much better against cannon rushes. Blizzard has made it clear that build order diversity is a thing of the past.

You are supposed to macro up, get to hive, then do deathball nonsense. What a great time to be an apm spammer.

I can provide the receipts. Many people in the past have been doubtful as you are now. It’s understandable. I’ve made an extraordinary claim. Only the absolute best players on Earth could have a hope of even being matched against these players, let alone beating them. What are the odds that I am one of these exceptionally rare players?

https://i.imgur.com/KHCiQaQ.png

You gotta love the guy in PartinG’s chat: “HES GOING TO LOSE LMFAO”.

FYI, at the time, proxy robo was basically impossible to stop. Blizzard ended up nerfing it. Not only did I beat the world’s best protoss at the time, but I did so with a massive balance disadvantage. I am not even a pro player. I am just messing around and having some fun. He went on to beat sOo with this build in the Code S. These are just the facts. You can kiss the ring at any time :kiss: :ring:

28

It is pretty possible that Batz beated these koreans once. I remember how KingCobra beated Stats 3 times in a row with cannonrush… …because Stats was playing on EU from Korea with +300 ping for fun and was non-stop laughing all 3 games so hard from the conversation with someone next to him, that he couldn’t even focus the probe with his stalkers.

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He was so mad at this loss, that he literally rage quit the NA server and said “ef my life.” Lmao. He was in try hard mode. The first one I showed, he literally slumped back into his chair and stared off into space for like 2 minutes. Sorry to break it to you. Batz is one of the goats.

https://i.imgur.com/Qv5maiw.png

I got tired of all the flipping smurfing so I wrote smurf tracking software. I actually own a website that players upload replays to. I know where all the bodies are buried. The thing that was the most surprising was that pro players smurf at around 5-6k basically all the time. If you take the average MMR of all their accounts, most of them are about 5500 mmr. Only on their main accounts do they play super-duper-serious. In order to even get into GM, you have to be beating pro players basically all the time.

Google has an algorithm for fixing spelling which is one of the reasons their search engine is so good. It’s basically a distance calculation. It calculates the distance between a set of characters and the nearest word as measured by how many edits you’d have to do to the characters to form a valid word. It gives you the ability to measure the distance between abstract things like words, or, in this case, hotkeys in SC2 and other statistical predictors like build orders. Well, you know, with minor adaptations.

People really don’t understand just how powerful computer science is. Computer scientists are playing a completely different game from the rest of humanity. It’s almost as big of a leap as humanity made from the stone age to the bronze age. In fact, it’s probably bigger. You guys are all out there smashing things with rocks and I am making molds and casting things out of bronze and building catapults and such.

I could literally write an AI to play SC2 for me if I wanted to. I don’t even have to play SC2 to play SC2. :wink:

One of the funny things is that I found out that streamers talk about me basically 24/7. It’s extremely common for just rando streamers to know my alias and know things about me. I am actually really famous. I will clown on some random guy in a game, he’s a streamer so I will check out his stream, and, sure enough, he’s crying about the “big and bad” batz and all the crimes he’s committed. Someone in the chat will be like "THAT WAS BATZ :angry: " and the streamer will be like “I KNOW THAT WAS BATZ :sob:”.

30

I don’t understand, how any of that has to do with what I said. I highly doubt that any korean pro would go to an american server with high ping to practice against players who are anyway much weaker. The only logical explanation of what they were doing in AM is having fun. That’s why I said that it is possible that you have beaten korean player having fun with 300 ping. He hasn’t even scouted at all by 4th minute, what already says a lot about how serious he was playing.

31

The game’s dead. The NA server is the only one with any action, especially depending on the time of day. Some days / times, you’d have to wait an hour for a match, unless you queue on NA. They are just practicing their build orders to perfection, only to find out that on NA there is a much greater diversity of strategies and they get absolutely clowned on because here we win through strategy instead of APM spamming the same build order on repeat like a robot.

There’s a reason why Hitman was able to absolutely clown on Elazer way back when. It’s the same reason I can clown on PartinG or Maru. The builds on NA are so out of meta and creative that you couldn’t ever prepare for something so bazaar. These players are “prep” players. They are good at doing a build really well if they have time to practice before hand. If you throw them into a new situation, they have no flipping clue what to do. SC2 is, to them, like a piano. They are just memorizing the notes. :notes: Meanwhile I am in a game and I will be like “I think this would be a great game for nydus infestor.”

The time I beat PartinG in the second game was an impromptu drone pull allin off of 3 bases. I was literally going to macro then was like “well, I guess I am pulling drones now”. The game when I beat his proxy robo, I went 3 hatch and he mistook it for pool first because absolutely nobody goes 3 hatch vs protoss. To quote Sun Tzu: “The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.” So, if you just pick actions at random, you will have a decent chance of beating even the best players on Earth because they can’t know what the right answer is. They see 3 hatch, but an allin is coming. They see an allin, but macro is coming. They see macro, but a defensive trap is set. You have to pick your actions at random. Beating these guys is literally that simple.

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Not sure how does “practicing” against random 5,3k barcodes builds with 300 ping will help them in the real bo3, and I am not even speaking about bo5 or bo7. There are players like kingcobra, who play totally different stuff, than other protoss players, and it works on the ladder, even against +6k players. But soon as he joins the tournament, everyone knows who he is and what he is going to do, so it stops working. And only the most optimized “standard” build work, because they give you the opportunity to get specific units faster than any other build.

p.s. I saw what you were doing and the timing. And I remind you again, that Parting has not scouted at all in that game, it is clearly visible on the minimap. It does say how much he wants to prepare and train the defense against cheeses and all-ins… …he does not care at all.

p.s.s. can you remind me, when was the last time an AM player won the premier tournament? I mean, from these guys, who have super strategical builds. Like Ruff for example.

33

Yes I doubt you went as far as to beat Maru (maybe even Byun) but ive seen you mention you matched or won vs Parting. On the latter I can believe and OK im not against bragging about it, it is an achievement in the mortal world of non-pros. Do you also know how f***in tiresome you are to even reply to? …

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34

That’s what it feels like to realize you were wrong. It’s a bummer, I know. You’ll get over it.

That’s because he knows 1 build and only 1 build. Of course it’s easy to hard counter that. I detest those kinds of players. They belong in bronze league, but because they can mass cannons and carriers with 80 APM they are GM. That’s everything wrong with SC2 in a nutshell. It’s exactly that class of playstyles that should be hit with a nerf nuke – everyone who uses them should lose 2,000 mmr the moment the patch hits.

To be GM, you should know at least 20 builds. Come on, that’s a low bar, and SC2 can’t even meet that.

35

HM for example uses 2 accounts in top10-15 GM, ofc not every acc they own will be 7K. But also starts accounts that end close to or above 6K but around it not 7K

Yes … I remember about parting but I dont see Maru and Byun. Also this was a cheese win. vs Parting. I thought you won in a normal game. SC2 is a game where the cheeser can beat a more skilled player.

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36

That’s absolutely false and indicative of a deep misunderstanding of the basics of the game. The game is designed to stalemate, so winning at the 5 minute mark is basically impossible when the game is designed to resolve at the 20 minute mark. The only way you end the game fast is if you radically outplay your opponent.

The game is designed for 15 minutes of SimCity macro before even interacting with your opponent to any meaningful degree. Sure, they might do some light harass, but none of this has any chance of affecting the game outcome. The game doesn’t start until the 15 minute mark.

37

ALL-ins are a way less skilled players to win, all the bane busts, 4 gates, roach ravager all ins are that. This is why in pro matches I also see e.g an underdog play cheese vs the clearly favored opponent because they try to win in a way vs more skilled player. Ofc skilled players can stop the cheese and that makes them better but examples in which cheese has won the games of the less skilled ones are numerous. Maybe stop thinking you are always right, you are not.

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38

Nope, pro level statistics make it crystal clear that losing to an allin is extremely rare. Games that end quickly are rare, and games that end quickly because the aggressor won are even more rare. In other words, games that end quickly do so because the aggressor lost and there was no point in playing out the game.

Beating a pro player in a fast game is a one in a thousand result unless you are close to their skill level. Beating one twice is a one a million outcome. I have many more examples than these two. These two are my favorites because his reaction was hilarious. His reaction tells you how incredibly rare these outcomes are.

If you want an example of a macro win, be my guest:

https://streamable.com/q83h38

Here I am beating the best NA protoss in a long macro game using ultralisks even though ultralisks are literal garbage vs protoss.

39

Let’s put your theory to the test. The win-rate equation for MMR is well known. PartinG is 7200 mmr. A player at 5300 mmr would lose:

y=1/(1 + exp(-(7200-5300) / 568)) = 0.97

So, PartinG would need to win 97% of the time. In order to to beat him twice, I’d have to be playing against him a ton, which automatically falsifies your theory. But, let’s put this into perspective for crying out loud. In order to have a 50% chance at beating him 2 times, I’d have to play against him at least 56 games. How on Earth is a 5300 mmr player being matched 56 times vs a 7200 mmr player? That’s just for a 50% shot at getting 2 wins. Most statistical tests require a >= 90% chance. That requires ~130 games. Your theory is straight up delusional.

Listen, guys, you’re jelly. Everyone can see it. It’s braindead to deny this accomplishment. It just is.

40

You still think that your calculations with tons of missing parameters will convince me? They will not. There are some obvious facts, which are clearly visible on the screenshots:

  1. Parting did not scout. You saw that and cheesed him.

  2. Parting did not scout, because he didn’t care about winning.

  3. Parting had 300 ping. Which is again a factor in micro ability.

When you will beat Parting in the 15 minutes macro game, considering that he for some reason was in AM and was training during tournament, that would be an accomplishment, but being proud of killing him, with unscouted cheese and present that as something special is total nonsense for me.

And you will easily be able to kill him twice or 3 times if he had continued having fun, instead of playing on his level. Such as when Stats lost 3 games in a row to KingCobra, which I already mentioned before.

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