[Suggestion] Improving prestiges - Swann, Vorazun, Abathur

(and sort of Zagara and Karax, but not really)

Swann
Grease Monkey

As many people said it before, this prestige is underwhelming compared to the similar prestige that Karax has. In fact, for pure defense, Swann’s P1 should be better, as the Drill’s AoE and slowdown cover for his turret’s weaknesses. Add more expensive Siege Tanks to the mix (Swann still needs to build them for long-range support, while Karax has Monoliths), and P2 falls further behind.
Perhaps pure defense wasn’t the intended design of this prestige (it’s pretty much the same as P0 when it comes to clearing the map, and better at spawncamping with turrets), but i’ll still make adjustments with the assumptions that it was.

Benefits:

  • Engineer Bay upgrades are 100% more effective. Armory upgrades are 200% more effective. Both Engineering Bay and Armory upgrades take 50% less time to finish.
  • SCVs repair at a 100% increased rate and gain double health.

Drawbacks:

  • Factory and Starport units cost 40% more.

It no longer increases only the gas cost of units, but both gas and mineral cost. The reason for that is increased attack and armor upgrades potentially making Hellbats overshadow Flaming Betties (think of 100 mineral Hellbats with 11 armor and more damage, then add the fact that SCVs don’t run all over the place when trying to repair them because they do not burrow, and they can also be healed by Science Vessels).
As for Siege Tanks, despite having less of them, each would be able to deal more damage than it does now (and get to max out on attack upgrades much faster), which means more firepower could be fit into a limited area.
And finally, the biggest problem of any turret Swann is how quickly and randomly the SCVs can die. A (ridiculously high :stuck_out_tongue: ) health increase should mitigate that.

Vorazun
Spirit of Respite

This prestige is a cleverly designed trap to attract the “i mass Void Rays against every composition on every map and mutation” players that think it will make their army unkillable. But it’s all an illusion, as Void Rays still keep dying (they just live for a bit longer before they do). Lack of Recall also completely ruins Vorazun’s high mobility. P3 is simply better for almost everything while still keeping Recall, so something about this prestige needs to change.

Benefits:

  • Emergency Recall recalls cloaked units to the closest Nexus or Dark Pylon instead of the primary structure and heals life and shields to full.
  • Deploy Dark Pylon cooldown and cost reduced by 50%.
  • Emergency Recall cooldown reduced by 75%.

Drawbacks:

  • Dark Pylons lose Recall.
  • Vorazun’s units can no longer cloak on their own. Stealth Drive cannot be researched.

Mostly the same as the current version, except units lose the ability to cloak (including Dark Templars), so the player needs to make extensive use of Dark Pylons to keep them invisible. HOWEVER, those that can keep up with the demand would benefit greatly from Emergency Recall having just 1 minute cooldown, making Vorazun’s units able to stay alive even with environmental mutators active (and who cares if a Dark Pylon gets destroyed later, they’re dirt cheap anyway). So the player is greatly rewarded for having Dark Pylons everywhere, even if their army isn’t able to be everywhere anymore.
(but perhaps 1 minute cooldown would be too good, and it should be 2 minutes instead?)

Withering Siphon

Another Vorazun prestige that does… something?.. but other than few exceptions, the reward is simply not worth it. I have two versions in mind of what could be done with it, and here’s the first take:

Benefits:

  • Unit abilities affect heroic units and deal 20 damage per second while they’re active (this cannot kill).
  • Unit attacks ignore target’s armor, and restore shields and energy equal to damage dealt.
  • Dark Archons become detectors.

Drawbacks:

  • Combat units deal 40% reduced damage.
  • Oracles are unavailable.

The biggest difference between this version and the current public one is that, despite units dealing even less damage (-40% instead of -25%), their attacks now ignore armor, which in practice might actually turn into more damage (especially for Corsairs and Void Rays, which wouldn’t need a Black Holes anymore). And while the prestige will still be slower at killing enemies in general, units will now heal themselves while doing so.
As for the Oracles, since they are already almost pointless on P2, then might as well remove them completely and give detection to something else instead - the Dark Archons. In fact, Dark Archons now would have a reason to use their regular attack, as they would be able to regain energy.

As for the second take on this prestige… P1 focuses on Dark Pylon, and P3 focuses on Shadow Guard, so why not try a design that focuses on Black Hole?

Benefits:

  • Black Hole duration increased by 100%.
  • Units attacking targets caught within a Black Hole restore their health, shields and energy, equal to damage dealt.
  • Dark Archons become detectors and get +100% attack range.

Drawbacks:

  • Combat units deal 25% reduced damage.
  • Stargate is unavailable.

Stargate is removed because Coirsair + Black Hole would become even better, Oracles pretty much don’t exist on public P2 anyway, and Void Rays have other prestiges where they can shine. So this version of the prestige focuses Vorazun’s Gateway units, with Dark Archons as its core component (detection and main splash damage dealer).
In fact, the reason for why Dark Archons get a range increase is because they become the sole splash damage dealer for Vorazun (Corsairs gone), and that extra range allows more of them to attack units caught in a Black Hole (and to stay safe behind Centurions).

Abathur
The Limitless

The “best” prestige in the game! (except not really…) Whatever the design direction was, it doesn’t seem to be satisfying to anyone - players that lure enemies into Toxic Nests to get a quick Brutalisk are penalized for even picking this prestige, and players that don’t care about luring will have their Ultimates delayed even more than they were. Plus, P1 already covers the “unstoppable lategame army” theme, and P2 covers the “army that teleports anywhere on the map” theme. So, what’s the point?
I’ll assume the point was to make a prestige similar to Raynor’s Backwater Marshall (more casual friendly gameplay) and make adjustments accordingly.

Benefits:

  • Ultimate Evolutions are no longer capped at 3 and need 80 biomass to evolve.
  • Mend’s heal-over-time effectiveness increased by 100%.

Drawbacks:

  • Toxic Nests no longer explode.
  • Biomass does not give any benefits.

This completely removes biomass farming through Toxic Nests, and the Nests themselves become glorified Creep Tumors (you can now make jokes about “average random queue Abathur - The Prestige” :stuck_out_tongue: ). However, with the biomass requirement lowered to 80, people that already play without Toxic Nest should be able to get their first Ultimate Evolution faster than on baseline Abathur (80 is equal to requiring 160 biomass on current P3… perhaps it should be lowered even further?). Perhaps, for situations where Toxic Nests simply cannot get enough biomass quickly, it would have some use among the better players too (but i personally can’t think of anything other than Polarity, or some specific enemy compositions, and compositions are too random to pick a prestige specifically for that).
Efficiency of Mend is increased to compensate for biomass no longer increasing unit survivability and having to engage enemies with unbuffed units.

Zagara

I didn’t really have any ideas for Zagara prestiges, other than giving Bile Launchers Deep Tunnel ability and limiting them to 10 (so can’t spam the map with teleporting Bile Launchers). The question is, which prestige would fit that the most? (i think P2, but does that one need to have more than it already has?)

Karax

I also didn’t have any ideas for Karax, as i think all of his prestiges are actually good. They are all well-defined and good at what they’re supposed to do. If i was to nitpick anything, it would have to be that baseline Karax is completely pointless now, as P3 does pretty much everything that it does, and lack of Chrono abilities isn’t that big of a deal (in fact, not having to announce Chrono Wave makes it even better :stuck_out_tongue: ).
Perhaps P3 should additionally make Energizers lose their Chrono Beam, since it’s also a “chrono” ability. That way P3 Karax’ army and cannons would have less dps than his baseline, actually making P0 the most well-rounded option (as it IMO should be).

I like the idea for Abathur’s P3….perhaps just have Toxic nests not give the biomass boost.

For Swann P2….How about

+100% Engineering Bay upgrades (as now for all buildings…maybe Fire Suppression goes to 30 hps)

add: Turrets gain benefits of Armory upgrades (so they act as a sink)
add: Turrets instant build at range 500 (SCV can ie dropped on visible location)

penalties: +100% unit gas cost (from+50%)
Salvage takes 20% Gas cost (Billy-30 gas to Salvage)
Turrets take 2 supply each

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I’ve found nice uses for Swann Grease Monkey. I think one of his features is Tanking.

Other than Nydas spamming, he can stall enemies on multiple fronts as well as attack them at the same time in these random “defense locations”. In certain mutations this can be useful. Take for example, Killbots and Hybrid Nuke. In maps like Mists Opportunities, some cheap Betties can help give you/ally enough time to move across the map to save the bots. You can even hold off Void Rifts and Reanimators a bit better with Grease Monkey. The Laser is nice, but doesn’t scale with money, only works on one location at a time, and you have to control it when dealing with multiple fronts.

Raynor prestige 1 (backwater marshall)

Infantry has 100per cent increased life. Planetary fortress enabled.
Bunkers and missile turrets now cost gas, can be built from infantry (en masse, though slowly) and self repair to full. both of them can be salvaged. bunkers and turrets benefit from infantry upgrades at the ebay and raynor’s munitions
enables advanced base defense at the fusion core

disadvantage
mules disabled. scvs and infantry cant repair base defenses, and static defense all cost 1 pop per building

(advanced base defenses: reduces cost, build time, enables repairs, and gives individual upgrades to each. also enables infantry to build ccs to go into planetary fortress)

The only change I would want for Swann is energy for his Command centers, so they can drop supply depots and I don’t get supply blocked as much :joy:

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Unit revive cooldown was 2 minutes early on, and they had to nerf cause it was bonkers OP… and you want 1 minute :joy:

I think you missed the part where i mentioned that it might be too strong. You probably also missed the part where it says that units can no longer cloak outside of the Dark Pylon, so if those are gone, there is no more Emergency Recall.

Also, i did play back when Guardian Shell and Emergency Recall had 2 minute cooldowns, and you’re mistaking the reason for the nerf. It wasn’t that ER was so strong, it was because Vorazun overall was too strong compared to other commanders (which were balanced around regular brutal, which back then was closer to current hard, and there was no enemy composition variety except for races).
She could take gas on all expos because those had no rocks, Shadow Guard had no initial cooldown (or it was much shorter than now), Shadow Fury dealt full damage to everything, Dark Archons weren’t nerfed, and there was also Emergency Recall on top of that.

Compare that to things that newest commanders have (literally unkillable Zerglings), and it’s hardly that overpowered (which is unfortunate, as i would rather avoid power creep).

Yes i did too. I don’t think I’m the one mistaken here.

Guardian shell was nerfed to 4 minutes because it was too strong. They nerfed both at the same time, giving the same reason.

See here:

Developer Comments: This is a very powerful ability, and similar to Vorazun’s Emergy Recall we felt that its cooldown was just too short.
https
://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Patch_3.7.0

They are not unkillable, otherwise you would never loose any. And their special ability does not extend to all other units in the game. Your suggestion would affect all units inside void pylon range, all otherwise cloaked units and all burrowed units.

Zeratul - knowledge seeker for example gets pretty damn close to unkillable once you have 5+ artifacts. Can you imagine how a 1 minute ER would affect him and his DTs? Or how it would impact Nova and her banshees and ghosts? There is tons of other stuff that would impact, regardless whether you take away default cloak from Vorazuns units.

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My Idea for Abathur Prestige:
The Limitless
Advantage
Ultimate Evolutions are no longer capped at 3.

Disadvantage:
Ultimate Evolutions require 200 Biomass (with the exception for the first Brutalisk, which requires 100 Biomass). Biomass is less effective.
(Should help in the early game.)

A small change to Artanis’s Prestige
Valorous Inspirator
Advantage: Increase the effectiveness of all active combat unit abilities by 100%. Singularity Charge increases Dragoons’ damage to non-armored targets by 5.

Disadvantage: Combat units cost 30% more.
(Some advantage to dragoons is better than none, in order to justify the cost increase.)

Not at the same time. Vorazun was being nerfed first, and Emergency Recall nerf happened at that time. Guardian Shell nerf happened later, when they lowered Emergency Recall cooldown to 4 minutes (and that one had cooldown increased to 5 mintues at first!).

So it was clearly not ER itself being targeted, but Vorazun as a whole. And since they nerfed ER, they obviously had to also nerf GS, since it’s stronger (it’s there for everyone, everywhere, all the time, unlike ER which is for Vorazun alone most of the time).

With that logic, 2 minute ER and GS were not OP either, because you were still losing some units.

But you know very well what people mean when they say that mechazerglings are “unkillable”. It’s not that they don’t die at all, it’s that they are cheap, and so tanky that it doesn’t matter even if they die. They are a basic unit that can survive several nukes! (and that’s ignoring the healing field, and the overcharged healing field, which actually makes them immortal)

Yes, just as intended. And that’s why i wrote “but perhaps 1 minute cooldown would be too good”.
Because giving an incentive to players to use this prestige and want to stay in the pylon radius is the point here, and numbers could always be tweaked later.

Or are you trying to say that the cloaking field should no longer affect allied units on this prestige? if yes, just say so.