Starcraft's story was bad even BEFORE SC2

UED did the exact same thing tho.

Which actually makes the Protoss the better choice : they won’t try to control every single aspect of a Terran life.

The overall picture is that the UED has done and will do ethnic cleansing on everyone they dont deem pure enough.

The people who allowed a Terran colony to die at the Zerg claws for science (which is actually way more callous than Mengsk who did this for strategical purposes) are truly interested in Koprulu Survival :roll_eyes:

Like I ever even suggested she was…
@Skehan I think someone called me a redhead. This would piss me off if I wasn’t laughing right now.

Kerrigan had crushed every rival faction at the end of BW yet aside from the UED she did not press to take over the sector. Sure she’s extremely dangerous when she seeks something in Terran worlds, but she doesn’t have the intention to stay…

Tassadar was seeking to save Terran lives on Tarsonis despite having the order to incinerate the planet. In fact one may argue that he had to seek a human alliance because he stopped purification…

She was seeking X’N artifacts in WoL and eliminate Mengsk in HotS. Sure she did extreme damage to the Terran doing so (and ask anyone on this board about my thoughts on Heart, I’m the first to call her actions unnecessary evil), but she never had the intention to kill or enslave every Terran…

To potentially avoid unnecessary casualties on both sides ? Sounds like a no-brainer if you aim at safeguarding humanity…

No ? By the time the Dominion was established the Protoss and Zergs were focused on killing eachother outside of Terran space leaving the Dominion unharmed and free to reinforce itself.

Funny how they never even bothered to contact them in ~250 years leaving them at the mercy of an unknown hostile sector. Or to stop them when they went into devastating conflicts like the Guild Wars and Korhal’s glassing.

Peace delegations against an hostile force which attacked them without warning ? At this point you should ask why the UED didn’t first send a peace delegation to the Protoss…

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Saying “The UED did the same thing” doesn’t prove the moral superiority of the aliens. It just proves my point that there are no moral superiors here. It’s a war of racial struggle in the galaxy. And in that context, a human faction should want other human factions to win instead of alien ones, given that every race regularly engages in no holds barred brutality to achieve their goals. If you are a Terran, you are human, you will fare better under human rule, no matter what style of government that is, compared to facing wholesale obliteration at the hand of the Zerg or have to contend with a rival race like that Protoss that sees humanity as expendable and inferior and has no interest in human survival if it threatens their interests. The UED, at the end of the day, will try to maximize human survival, the aliens will not.

The UED engaging in “cleansing” a portion of humanity deemed a threat to human prosperity is a superior outcome to aliens completely wiping out all humans entirely or dominating humanity with no concern for human interests or survival. Like I said, Kerrigan from the beginning has pursued the goal of the Zerg: consuming and assimilating all rival races. All else is secondary. She is literally everything people ascribe to the UED, except worse, because she is not human (and thus doesn’t have human survival at heart) and has shown no intention of ceasing the Zerg agenda.

She only played nice when she faced destruction at the hands of the mighty UED, and once in power again, she gleefully began hostilities again, wiping out all comers and letting them exist in a weakened state because she wanted (in her mind) to make them suffer seeing her rise in power, knowing they were doomed. How is that any better for the Terrans than the UED humans coming in, wiping out a small fraction of the overall population and otherwise, human survival being assured, no Zerg or Protoss threats, and life being little different than your standard Dominion or Confederate dictatorship?

You basically called the person who criticized Kerrigan fanboys for a freaking decade… a Kerrigan lover.

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Protoss characters have on several occasions displayed care for not only life in general, but also specifically for Humans. Tass went out of his damn way on Tarsonis even though it wasn’t the best choice strategically.

UED doesn’t care about Terrans. They care about Earth Humans.

Thing is… Protoss never took over. And it’s not like they couldn’t do it. And funnily enough Kerrigan left Terrans alone at the end of BW, because of pettiness.

Which is pretty much a thing that wrecks your narrative throughout those ugly blocks of text.

None of us here is going to even get close to the idea that Kerrigan is about peace or love, we’ve been fighting that notion for years.
But during Brood War, she still proposed an alliance of convenience where she ended up being a backstabbing bit^h… to the surprise of no one involved. They saw it coming, but they didn’t know when.

And by the way, Kerrigan ceased that at the end of BW when she was decidedly the strongest faction in the sector, so there is that.

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Wrong. The Protoss position is one of racial superiority above humans and the belief that Terran sovereignty is secondary to stopping the spread of Zerg. Unilaterally wiping out human settlements without any attempt to reach out to Terran authorities first reflects that elitist Protoss position.

Tassadar is an isolated outlier and considered a renegade and a traitor, not for siding with humanity, for simply not wiping out large numbers of Terrans as instructed by Protoss high command. Tassadar and his handful of buddies do not represent the Protoss culture or policy. And maintaining large galactic fleets that routinely wipe out rival races to stop a third party race from expanding doesn’t sound like non intervention. Terrans and Earth humans are all HUMANS.

And, compared to the alien races, they have more a vested interest in human survival and human power existing in Koprulu as opposed to alien supremacy (and human extinction) in the region. UED are jerks but they are at least human jerks and can be relied on to put humans first (colonial sovereignty is not equal to human survival necessarily and in the face of powerful alien threats, sovereignty and ethical issues are really secondary).

Who says the Protoss weren’t imperialists? Huge fleet flying around interfering in the affairs of other races, the attitude of racial superiority, martial culture, Protoss high command ruthless attitude toward human life.

Who says they aren’t trying to call the shots in Koprulu? When things don’t go their way, they call down alien hellfire from their carriers on innocent Terrans and thats OFFICIAL Protoss policy. Kerrigan didn’t leave Terrans alone, she helped the Overmind against humanity then, when the UED whooped her, lied to get humans on her side, then resumed hostilies against humans again in her quest for power, slaughtered the human UED fleet to the last man and let Mengsk survive as a mere sadistic gesture to let him suffer and because she knew he could do nothing in his current state to stop her inevitable victory. How is that a great situation for Terran humanity?

They’re worse off than if they had allied with the UED and at least made the galaxy safe for humanity. If all factions are jerks who wipe out each other routinely, at least the UED are human jerks. The Protoss knew the nature of the Zerg as single minded and all consuming, sacrificed Terran lives to stop the Zerg even, but then ally with the Zerg to stop the human UED? You need to have a lot of contempt for humans calling the shots to side with the Zerg against the UED. The Terrans have seen the threat of the Zerg, yet hate the UED more because of sovereignty and purification policy issues, when the latter will still result in a better deal for the Terrans than outright destruction by the Zerg.

Kerrigan didn’t stop doing anything, she had beaten everyone into submission and could now afford to relax before resuming her standard Zerg agend she’d be pursuing from the beginning.

One could make the argument that the UED would calm down once they had neutralized all threats, too. Again, a UED alliance is a better bet for Terran humans in terms of what matters: human survival and power in the galaxy, the UED is not uniquely bad compared to other factions given that other factions are fairly similar in terms of tactics and goals in some sense (UED purification policy is not as bad as extermination by the Zerg, sorry buddy).

If this were just a story of the Terrans vs UED in a struggle of sovereignty like American Revolution in space, we could debate ethics and such. This is a story of racial struggle between humans and aliens (in which the aliens have drawn first blood and are bent on human destruction or domination of humans).

Quibbling over the distasteful nature of the UED is really not important considering the stakes here. They’re the only hope that humanity has at existing and the alliance of Terrans with two rival alien races against a fellow human faction (within the context of racial struggle in the galaxy) is simply confounding.

The Protoss to some extent are guilty of this with their insistence that they engage in hair splitting over the Dark Templar rather than unite against the Zerg, and sure enough, they suffer for it, yet they don’t learn the lesson, still side with Kerrigan (who has a terrible track record and is only friendly because she needs them temporarily) because “the UED does eugenics”. But the Zerg killing everything? Nice! lol.

The Protoss exert their authority using their fleets, murder Terran settlements, purge their own society of perceived undesireables and regard humans are inferior and expendable. The Zerg are just murderous monsters from day 1. And people think an alliance with them is preferable to the UED? How are they any better? None are angels, but the UED are “bad”. OK guys!

Yeah, like UED has ever asked nicely about anything. There is a stark difference between getting to burn the Infested and getting straight to “join or die”.

After Tass crashes his space car into OM, he immediately reaches exalted status in the surviving Protoss populace. BW Protoss leaders include people like Zeratul who is definitely as open-minded (Tass has it from him after all) and Artanis, who is basically Tassadar’s pupil.

Protoss didn’t get stuck in episode III.

Routine wiping of other races isn’t a thing. It happened once and Colossi were banned immediately after and new policies were implemented to boot.
Oh yeah, because Humans are a shining beacon of intraspecies understanding, who are completely foreign to the concepts of tribalistic behavior and racism.

UED has an interest in Humans living in Koprulu. Doesn’t mean they are interested in Terrans living there.

Protoss are uptight, condescending, holier than thou and many other things, but most of the time they are far more respectful to Terran life than Terrans themselves.

Do you even respect something like chronology? Events don’t happen at the same time. They chose to side with Kerrigan for the time being. They were trying to live another day, whilst perfectly knowing they are likely to get wrecked once she sees it fit. They tried to fight her and they failed. They were stalling.

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Funny thing is, had the UED not intervened in the sector the Terrans would have been in a better position since Protoss and Zergs were busy killing eachother. Their intervention literally shifted their attention to the Terran worlds, ultimately resulting in Terran getting weakened.

Also, it’s amazing cheeseface never answered the “UED sacrificed a Terran world to the Zergs for science argument”. I’ll also add the fact that the UED wasn’t above using Infested Terrans on Char instead of mercy killing them.

Also Also :
UED could have gone straight to enslaving the Second Overmind without intervening in Terran affairs.

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I’m almost tempted to complete WoL’s campaign on Brutal on US Servers just to show up with Ginger Kerrigan’s face on those forums. I appparently earned it !

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I don’t see the Protoss or Zerg living up to the high moral standards everyone places on the UED, yet people think they make natural allies , despite having nothing in common with the Terrans and seeing Terrans as food or inferior neighbors to be wiped out if needs serve.
Sure, Tass is martyr, but the only reason the Protoss are even working with Terrans is because they have been decimated by the Zerg and are desperate for allies.
Without the immediate threat of the Zerg, there is no reason the Protoss don’t resume what they are known for: naturally, putting their own race first and having a low opinion of the Terrans. The shock of the Zerg onslaught was the catalyst for good relations, not a genuine sense of racial brotherhood. The routine wiping of Terran settlements was policy up until the Protoss started losing and needed humans to help them. The Protoss do not have Terran interests in mind, their alliance is built on necessity in the face of a greater alien threat, otherwise, there would be no reason for them to switch from murdering infested Terran areas. Not a good basis for a long term relationship. Morally critiquing Terrans does not disprove the fact that the other races are petty and murderous at best and literal mindless murdering insects at worst and are more of a threat to Terran interests than their UED brothers.

I’m focused on what serves the Terrans best, not on judging who is moral. Every faction fights for its interests in Starcraft, and my point is that the “UED is the bad guys, and allying with aliens is a better bet for Terrans” story arc is outright silly. In a galactic racial war, allying with rival races is a bad move. And at the of Brood War, we see the Terrans are weaker than when they started, and at the mercy of the Zerg (and the Protoss, if they so wished to contest Terran space). With no big brother UED to stand up for human survival, rival alien races can wipe out Terrans to the last man if they wish. Terrans ARE humans, what are you talking about?

They just aren’t Earth based humans. Terrans are more interested in Terran survival than Protoss. Protoss loyalty is to their own. This is why, to safeguard PROTOSS interests, they nuked Terran worlds to stop the Zerg from spreading. They were prepared to sacrifice Terrans to achieve their goals. That is not standing up for Terran interests. When did the Confederacy begin nuking itself to stop the Zerg? They got mad when Raynor destroyed an infested command center, for petes sake. Siding with the Zerg is the stupidest thing one could ever do, especially the Zerg were the entire reason both races were in trouble in the first place. They distrust Earth humans with a specific, limited agenda more than a plague of mindless space insects whose goal is to kill everything entirely? Silly… As for the Terrans, its a double insult.

Not only are th Zerg an existential threat to their very existence, but the UED are fellow humans that want to put humans first and safeguard Koprulu against alien threat. A limited purification policy by your own race is not worse than outright extinction at the hands of the Zerg nor is it worse than being at the mercy of the Protoss, whose loyalties are naturally to their own race.

If the Terrans are trying to live, why side with races that are either trying to consume humanity itself or were nuking human settlements to dust a second ago? The Terrans would have benefitted the most from allying with the UED and wiping out both the Zerg and Protoss, making the galaxy under firm human control forever for the benefit of humanity.

A limited purification program is worth that lofty goal and better than extinction at the hands of the swarm or having to placate the Protoss forever and engage in galactic disputes with their race . Instead they go against their own racial interests and look where it got them.

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Terrans were weakened by their refusal to recognize their own racial interest and uniting with fellow Earth humans against aliens that ultimately are against their interests, more or less, and in the Zergs case, want human extinction. The Terrans racial betrayal and internecine war with their own brethren, much like the Protoss with their own Dark Templar, weakened their position. With the UED at their side, colonial humans would prevail and under UED control, humans would dominate and be uncontested in the galaxy. Trading one police state for another and having a purification program beats extinction and alien threats. You talk all day of “the UED did this and that, so mean!” but ignore the alternative which is the friggin Zerg killing all humans and the Protoss treating humans like expendable pets forever. I’ve answered you question many times about the moral questions. Aliens interfered with Terrain affairs, yet you think they are worthy of alliance, yet the UED are bad, despite being the same race as the Terrans and thus having at least a primal interest in seeing humanity survive. Again, you desperately want to have Terrans ally with rival aliens, for what reason, I don’t know.

Some protoss might have a low impression and by some I mean pretty much boomer protoss like Rohana. And she is one of the biggest advocates of the leave them alone policy in the protoss campaign.

The protoss knew the terrans where in koprulu from the moment they arrived yet didn’t do anything but watch them until they got in the way of the zerg. The policy of wiping human worlds was put in place by the conclave an organization that was notably out of touch with the actual situation and given that tassadar and artanis were able to rally considerable forces to their side it wasn’t a unified opinion.

You say its a race war but its more complex than that and to the terrans the UED is just another foreign invader intend on making their little corner of the universe hell.

And than you forget about the characters involved. That being Mengsk taking front and central stage as the leader of the dominion. He wants to rule the sector and he can’t do that with the UED so kicking them out is an important goal for him. Raynor is the one that gets the protoss on board with all of this being buddy with both artanis and tassadar he understands that they are less of a threat than the UED which left the terrans to rot until swooping in now and wanting to rule or kill them.

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You’re the one saying the UED is a morally better choice, so of course they’re the ones to be judged by higher standards.

Which basically translate to : Protoss let the Terran do whatever they want as long as they don’t encroach on Protoss space. How is that worse than a totalitarian regime which will proceed to do an ethnic cleansing on Terrans they won’t subjugate ?

Mengsk had zero relationships with Zerg and Protoss that weren’t “kill on sight” up until the UED showed up. Heck, his inauguration speech warned Terrans against allying with them. And up until the UED showed up the Dominion was arguably the strongest faction in the sector due to Protoss and Zergs slaughtering eachother on Aiur. Had the UED simply proposed genuine help by giving him Earth Technology then humanity would have been dominant, since Kerrigan could only get around the Psi Disruptor with Mengsk’s help. Instead they instigated a brutal war against him, severely weakening the Dominion’s infrastructures (they destroyed the Dominion’s main shipyards ffs) and forcing him to ally with Zerg and Protoss (Let’s not forget Kerrigan essentially blackmailed him into helping her), which left him vulnerable to Kerrigan.

Which wasn’t Kerrigan’s intention, at least not in the short term, or heck, even long term.
Sure she only gave them a reprieve, but between 4 years of freedom between war and decades of subjugation, I’ll take the former option anyday.

Terrans were left alone by Protoss until Zergs showed up. They were never treated as pets, at worst they were seen as wild animals in a reservation.

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The UED explicitly views the Terrans of the K-Sector, the descendants of mutants and dissidents, as less than fully human. The Protoss have a certain arrogance about them but once again, unlike the UED they have no intention of enslaving them, and Artanis even comes to view them as equals.

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Kerrigan is so funny in SC1. “3 fleets? Arcturus, you’ve been raiding the salvage dumps again?”

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All the more reason to make SC3. UED comes back out from Earth.

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This was actually a good strategic move on their part. Absent the Psi Disruptor, assaulting the Overmind on Char would have been a grueling slugfest that would have taken every gun they had. Conscripting the Dominion gave them (at the time) much needed arms and bodies to throw at the zerg in order to make it possible.

While Du’Galle was a fool in trying to get rid of the Disruptor, the plan to take control of the Dominion was in place well before they even knew it existed.

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Ok, I’ll start off by saying you have interesting points and yes the SC1 story was far from perfect. I only have two objections, one general and one specific.

The general objection is that while the story is imperfect and has it’s plot holes I’m willing to overlook them for the sake of everything they did RIGHT! When has a story been perfect? When has any story not had logical inconsistencies at the best of times? Never, and that’s ok because we don’t need perfection we only need effort and vision to make a story compelling and I found that the SC1 was indeed compelling despite what you point out. Perhaps the flaws are also a matter of the game simply not aging well. Personally, I couldn’t care less how dark or gritty it is, those adjectives are overused and vague. The story did have meaning however, and it’s meaning is not the cliched Marvel garbage that SC2 became.

My specific objection has to do with you analysis of certain characters reactions to the UED. The UED never came across as reasonable or willing to negotiate with any race or faction. They were simply there to take over without any concern for who they had to step on to do so. It doesn’t seem strange to me that Raynor and the Protos wouldn’t take to kindly to that plan from the UED, although they are certainly the lesser of two evils compared to Kerrigan and even a 5 year old child could spot that a mile away, which is of course the main concern.

Through much of the Brood War, the UED was actually a far greater threat than Kerrigan, as she had not come to power yet. She ultimately manipulated everyone to make her goals happen (and was in turn being manipulated by Duran).

Things shifted and she became the primary threat after defeating the UED on Korhal and betraying her allies.

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Threat =/= evil though.

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All things considered, i would probably peg the UED as being more evil than Kerrigan. She at least is only one person and her evil is of a fairly petty nature. The UED is institutionalized evil spread across multiple star systems and all their inhabitants with very calculated, strategic evil.

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