Small buff idea for Dehaka: Give his Primal Wurms on

Yes, the Primal Wurms hurt and they have more HP than most static defenses, but any damage dealt to them sticks because they only get standard Zerg regeneration (the very slow variety). Not to mention they cost supply, and if made too numerous they have a tendency to overkill.

The sustain is the big issue, though, because you can’t get an ally to fix them up (most Zagara or Kerrigan players won’t use their Queens for that even if you ask, and most players don’t often make Queens anyway). You could say the same thing about Spine and Spore Crawlers, but they don’t take up population space while Primal Wurms do.

As such, I think it’d be nice if the Primal Wurms could get faster health regen while out of combat. This wouldn’t make them overpowered as they’d still be vulnerable to getting bursted down by anti-armor units and still be somewhat ineffective against large enemy armies (especially due to their lower rate of fire), but would at least make them last longer in drawn out battles. Plus it would make microing them to Deep Tunnel away when damaged even more rewarding.

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Yeah, I don’t see why this change should not happen. I think it is reasonable to give them some slow regen (in or out) of combat.

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Since I’ve made primal worms all of, oh, 4 times, I’ll agree that they need a buff. But since Dehaka is just fine without them, put it on the low priority list.

Dehaka isn’t a defensive commander. Even if the worms were good, there would be little reason to use them.

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I was thinking of these buffs for Primal Wurms.

  • Give 50 mineral Discount for Primal Wurm (It has twoa bilities, Bile Stream and Deep tunnel but it also takes up 1 supply so -50 mineral discount is justified)
  • Primal Wurms can be healed through Primal Regen (as a particular unit not as a strcuture)
    (Heal overtime is certainly useful but compared to Photon Cannons etc defensive don’t have much ways to be restored, lots of defensive buildings are meant to be rebuilt/replaced)
  • For Greater Wurm, one Greater Wurm is ready as soon as Glevig’s Den is built.
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Supply is the main issue. Not sure if completely removing it will be OK, but at least it needs to be reduced to 1 from 2.
Also, Dehaka’s unit producing building has only 400 hp, when any enemy gets in my base they are destoyed almost instantly. I know that these guys can unburrow and fight, so too much hp can lead to undesired usage, but they’re so slow and damage is so low, that I think that making their hp equal to barracks/pool/gateway won’t be harmful.

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I think they’re fine as is, mostly because all they require is a drone, and you’re usually making them in surplus in case you need to resurrect Dehaka anyway. And if he doesn’t die, that’s free drones to use for wurm fodder! And with rapid fire, their ability is so much fun to burn things down with. Likewise, rapid firing them onto the battlefield when you have 10 sitting at home is pretty devastating.

Having his hives buffed in a way that allows you to use them as units in silly builds would be fun. I feel like it’s a useless implementation at the moment that they can walk and fight. Maybe if they provided buffs for units or could deep burrow out of harm’s way.

You can go mass wyrms and it’s a pretty strong build. Do you really think it’s reasonable to be able to build 150 of them (with both expansions fully saturated, more if you pull workers off gas after you have all your pack leader dens up)?

The initial round of revamps was focused on making lesser used (or outright worthless) units more viable to give commanders more build variety (and give the mode more replayability). Sometimes this meant making a unit more generally useful, sometimes it meant buffing it so it was better in a particular niche. Lately, all of the revamp ideas I’ve seen here are like you guys want to turn every commander into Nova, where you have to actively screw up to even lose a unit.

Losing units sometimes is part of an RTS game. As long as you’re trading more efficiently than your enemy, you’re doing fine (and in co-op, most encounters are embarrassingly lopsided as it is). Replace your losses; it’s part of the macro game. It’s especially easy with primal wyrms; Dehaka regularly floats five-digits of minerals at the end of every game. Just make another one. They’re basically free after a certain point in the game.

Static defense is inherently niche in co-op anyway. The main reason Dehaka has primal wyrms (and Tychus has auto-turrets) is to handle things like ghosts trying to nuke. Not every unit in the game has to be incredibly versatile.

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Here me out, while I’m at it couldn’t we make defensive structure of Dehaka, Swann and Karax to benefit from weapon upgrades (ground upgrades for Karax or maybe he can benefit from both)?

  1. Primal Wurm maybe a building but it is more close to a “creature” so to say. So really it could benefit from upgrades

  2. Swann/Karax are practically they are master builders so naturally they can surely employ weapon upgrades into their building easily.
    (Verifying) Stukov’s uprooted Infested Bunker can benefit.

All you gotta do is pray for an Abathur ally :wink:

This. If wurms didn’t use supply, you wouldn’t have to find a balance between building them and an army. You could just dump all your excess minerals on them at every available moment and spam them on the battlefield with impunity. If they didn’t cost supply, they’d have to be 100+ minerals more to justify it. I wouldn’t mind them being 50 less minerals as is though.

I don’t think its anywhere near to Mutas or Tyrranosour in terms of strength. And you won’t have resources to build 150 of them in a normal scenario.

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I don’t think that’s an issue at all, the supply.

Zeratul, Artanis, Vorazun are just a few examples of commanders that will (inevitably during a game) run excess minerals. So any player wishing to spam cannons can always do so.

I don’t see how that differs than Primal Wurms for Dehaka. I think removing it entirely isn’t a bad thing. Meanwhile, mass spamming Primal Wurms as a strategy, although works in experienced hand, will never become a main stay strategy for most average players to be abused (as is implied).

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Well, not being able to somewhat efficiently dump resources after hitting 200 supply is pretty annoying for me. Thats why Zeratul’s cannons are so awesome.
And if Wurms were at least 1 supply instead of 2, it would be a good reason to keep them as part of your main army and not immediately dispose of them as soon as you get enough gas for good units.

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Them being lowered to one supply, or preferably not costing supply at all, is what I would want most for Dehaka right now, it is indeed a tad annoying that he doesn’t have a mineral dump at max supply.
I would much rather have his wurms not cost supply than have better sustainability for them.

Just because you have an excess of minerals doesn’t mean a commander should be buffed. Should Tychus get autoturrets you can spam on the battlefield from a drop pod like Zeratul because you’re sitting on minerals after maxing out?

That has nothing to do with this topic at all though?

OP is suggesting to Dburger to try out some changes regarding Primal Wurms. So this isn’t about whether Tychus gets a new calldown Turret because Dehaka got 0supply cost Primal Wurms…

Can you read? I was responding to someone else and (for once) the forum shows as much.

Starcraft 2 Improving Dehaka: Primal Wurms and Greater Primal Wurms
Link: https://youtu.be/IhyqaMfFRaM
Here are things that is improved.

  1. Primal Wurms costs 200 minerals
  2. Primal Wurm can be battle ready in 1.5 seconds after emerged from deep tunnel (was 3 seconds).
  3. They benefit from Weapon/Armour Upgrade.
    Primal Wurm (50/1 > 69/4) Greater Primal Wurm (70/1 > 91/4)
  4. They benefit from Dehaka’s Regeneration Aura.
  5. Primal Drones can build them in the fog (not the black area)(this is a bug)
  6. 1 Greater Primal Wurm charge is ready when Glevig’s Den is complete
  7. Greater Primal Wurm’s Deep Tunnel cooldown is 20 seconds
  8. Greater Primal Wurm’s Deep Tunnel enables it to travel to any fogged areas. (6~8 changes are implemented in my previous proposal)

About reducing 1 supply from 2 supply doesn’t seem fitting for the Primal Wurm as they are “living creatures” rather than a built structure.

They are actually very versatile defense because.

  1. They cost only minerals (gas is extremely important for Zergs)
  2. Their damage (not the DPS) is Third/second only to Khadaryn Monolyths and Earth Splitter Ordinance as defensive structures.
  3. Their Deep Tunnel enables them to travel any visible spaces (Use Greater Primal Wurm to establish vision in fog).

For me Dehaka isn’t about defence, that is his defining weakness.
Thus his defence structure isn’t about actual “defence” but “buying time” for Dehaka to complete his full Death Ball.
However Primal Wurm still does a great job as temporary defence and a “death ball” (works well with Guardians if you control them well).
Hope this gave some insight.

I wish I could fight only with Dehaka buildings. Is that too silly of a dream?