You are not understanding what I’m saying at all.
I actually like raven in tvt and tvp. Its just that in TvP that ravens cost too much on top of that protoss have this eco lead from the start…
Ravens are useless in TvZ
on a side note still wondering when they will fix eco disadvantage Terran has in PvT
My god you are so childish that you forgot to add commas to your salty comment, I guess this happens when you get that mad. Also, you have too much time in your hands kid, I can’t play all day like you do but I do enjoy the game, learned a lot from it and have experienced decent Ravens users first hand, maybe that is what you lack.
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Dude, really? Would you really trade a Raven for a Templar? A Viper? Definitely not an Infestor… Ghosts are good, and worthwhile, but really? Ravens? The crapiest unit in the game.
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Pathetic response…
“Decent Raven users” don’t exist because Ravens outside of TvT as part of unit compositions are rare or don’t exist at all.
But it is amazing at stealing 400/400 Hero Units and capital ships
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No, it really doesn’t. I have already explained why - points that you neglected to address.
Because seeker missile was easily abusive and extremely broken. Its design lent itself extremely well to stack, and did a massive amount of damage instantly.
Fungal growth has its own issues (and frankly is extremely abusive too - I greatly dislike it for multiple reasons and would much rather it get redesigned similarly to the Raven’s rework), sure, but to say it hasn’t been touched is false. It no longer roots and does less damage than it used to in WoL. Its damage also takes a lot longer to apply than seeker missile did, and requires three fungal growths to match the damage of a single HSM.
As for Parasitic Bomb, that got redesigned too, to be stronger but at the cost of not stacking anymore. And since it doesnt slow units it can be microed against for counterplay. Furthermore, its damage is not instant, only being applied over the course of 7 seconds. My only complaint with it is that it can be difficult to identify which unit has PB applied to it.
Something that isn’t a result of the ravens being useless, rather it is a result of the way you access them and their general expense.
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It’s a mix of both.
Would you rather build an Infestor or a Raven? A Viper or a Raven?. A Ghost or a Raven? A HT or a Raven?
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why are you showing the other people career profile when you got non on your own? What are you trying to prove here?
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Depends on the context. Alone, infestors arent particularly good. As I said, I would have a raven and a viper on the same level.
Low numbers, I definitely think that a raven or a viper would be the way to go instead of a ghost or infestor. Both of them provide far more utility than a single infestor in most instances.
Would you really?. Vipers can abduct units, have a killing AOE spell and have a spell that stops enemy ranged units from having range.
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Does Raven has utility??? yes
Well sure does a reaper…
Is the Raven by far the worst spell caster in the game??? Yes
I would pick every spell caster in the game over the raven
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AAM in particular is extremely composition-dependent, since the damage it adds is a factor of the opposing army’s health and the player’s units burst. AAM also doesn’t work with splash, which rules out just about every edge case where AAM seems like it would be useful for units other than Marines, Battlecruisers, and joke builds involving Reapers or SCVs.
Ravens are practically worthless in TvZ other than supporting Battlecruisers (AAM on Corruptors, IM to cancel Neural Parasite). Bio compositions will usually be met with Zerglings and Banelings (where AAM is not worth squat), and they rely heavily on supporting units that do not benefit from AAM in order to be successful. Neural Parasite is less of an issue for Bio, so it is almost always better to rely on units like Ghosts, Liberators, or Tanks to kill Infestors over disabling them with Ravens.
That leaves Ravens for TvT (where they are already used) and TvP (where they are most useful in 1/1/1 pushes).
I would agree with that sentiment.
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Just no. They too expensive. Why not banshee? Banshee better than raven for mineral harass. How Raven can kill 20 drones? Just pull back drones, its so hard for you? Holy balls, thats seems so foolish.
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And ravens can neutralize key units taking them out if the fight as well as armour shredding entire armies (which I might add is a lot harder to avoid due to the fact that it has very little time between activation and impact). While it doesn’t do damage directly, it drastically increases the output of damaging units, particularly those that are DPS oriented like Bio is. Temporarily Removing 3 levels of upgrades is huge. PB is only a concern for squishy air units when paired with fungal growth, which is what makes it a powerful spell. Outside of that its mediocre at best.
Do I think the raven could be better? Yes, I do, but that isnt to say that its a bad unit, because it really isn’t. Specifically I think IM could immobilize units in addition to preventing them from attacking (which would be amazing for TvP and sniping colossus), as well as bugfixing the splash issue that AAM has. Outside of that, it could be a little cheaper or come on a reactor - both would be broken.
I get this… but I’m kinda confused how it isn’t better for TvP.
The main thing about buffing it is to make sure it remains support, and doesn’t go back to being “mass raven is great once you’re on 200/200!”
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As they dont have way to do damage when massed, this could never be issue anymore. Tho i say bring infestor to ravens lvl. No dmg on fungal, ff fungal, infested terran immobile, only 11s lifespan and 2 cast range, neural 150 energy as taking unit is 10x better than dissabling one. To compensate, no neural upgrade and ITs dont need to spend 3s as eggs.
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well i think they could lower its cost to 100/150 aswell as buffing AAM for instant cast that you don’t debuff you own units if you wanna hit fast melee units
While I agree they need love,
you often can see them in each match up… (in a best of 3, at least once vs each race, also depends on the player of course).
TvZ i just very today watched a replay where it was used througout the game vs zerg. (you can look at special vs stephano, to just name one, iirc wcs day3) It also supports bio and BC because of their fast attacks, that being said, only 1 raven is necessary to do the debuff, it’s not very cool… Also you can disable infestors with it, to protect BCs from being neuraled/= after getting neuraled*)… I still don’t get why they FULLY removed the damage, it’s not like the other races can’t do “free” damage, lol wtf. really wtf abotu that total removal.
TvP you also see 1 raven! it is just so good for Bio vs Zealot or Adept, that was it again… thhis sucks again, you want one raven, perhaps it gets sniped (because this thing is easy to snipe, stubborn slow turn rate, and high energy vs feedback yay… If you play vs Immortals more ravens are useful, but again … FEEDBACK?
But yea to put it in a nutshell vs protoss there are enough targets for your ravens.
TvT there it is actually relatively useful: You can disable lots of stuff:
- Tanks comes in mind first
- Thors…
- Bc
They get wracked from vikings of course…
But yea really expensive, advantage is like for Infestors: The standard foodcost of 2.
ALL IN ALL I would say the Raven is the i-“Tüfpelchen” on top of your army, HOWEVER the micro is more often than not NOT worth the effort. It’s really just a bonus that will be useful, similiar to full caster armies on zerg (and protoss?) when you have very good multi army control… 5 groups… (is what top zergs use, and i said its similiar here…, you don’t want the ravens to be dying in your 1 (main) nor 2 (vikings) not focus fire on your tanks (3) or kiting with the BCs (4)… you want them in the back so an extra hotkey if you want them to be worth it… Of course speaking about the ideal situation, I know it’s very practical to put them to the vikings group…
otherwise it’s not recommended to get them… I would also like to hint at TY (korean pro gamer and caster) who makes use of literally all the terran units… that is GREAT however not recommended at all to someone not being capable, and that person should rather concentrate on fewer units! yes.
AND OF COURSE I ALREADY AGREED THAT THEY LACK USEFULNESS - as in WHY DID THEY REMOVE point defense ddrone? Might aswell give the short duration version (Id prefer the longer one) back. That way you could have more options…
-> ravens are “balanced” by their potential power and they need careful balance, but seem underpowered because of how few are actually useful and how easy they get “sniped” and shot at. The best example is when they want to place their turret, IT IS ALMOST MELEE RANGE! (and then something might be in the way)
Asterix:* That being said, it is much much easier to neural a bunch of Thors / BC than targeting Infestors in a huddled fight of ground and air units, and not all are neuraling… The raven is too DIFFICULT to control, to reactionary in this very case. The attacker is in the advantage…
Not in the same way Vipers and Infestors do. IM also doesn’t work on non-Psionic biological units.
AAM’s debuff works on friendly units too and you can target friendly units with AAM which is a big problem since AAM is no longer a damage spell. Fungal and Time Warp have no such problems.
It wouldn’t be broken at all.
Reducing the Raven cost to 100/150 would be perfectly balanced since that is the same cost of an Infestor and 50 minerals more than a High Templar. Do you understand how ridiculous you sound?.
Reactored Ravens would allow you to actually build them as part of your comp, since Protoss can warp in HT’s and Zerg can build as many Infestors & Vipers as they have larva and resources.