“Edit : I’m also thinking changing Workers to .5 supply. I think it would achieve the same desired effect . I guess I’ll give it the college try, I have no experience with the Mod editor, but how hard can it be assisted with A.I?”
It clearly can be done and most peoples computers can handle that in 1v1
It would fix late game macro / tech issues for Zerg.
It would make the issue of orbital commands less of a problem for Zerg and Protoss since every race isn’t as restrained by supply.
The games would be awesome, this could probably be done in 2v2, but for obvious reasons there’s no way this would work in 3v3 or 4v4.
Do it. We’re likely never getting a SC3 and if we were, the most obvious thing to feature would be a supply cap increase to 300/300 using modern CPU’s and multi-threading developments. This is the easiest way to make SC2 truly feel like a Broodwar.
Yet Zerg gets really shafted with this change. Potentially having to deal with an extra 100 supply of Skytoss or Mech is not a great proposition for Zerg.
Increasing supply cap is effectively a buff for well-supported supply-efficient units in maxed-out army scenarios. Skilled spellcaster usage is supposed to be an equalizer, but the more army you are dealing with, the more difficult it is to equalize with spellcasters. A Skytoss army that is well-supported with High Templar and Archons becomes even stronger - or alternatively, the Protoss can likely afford to keep the Skytoss army as-is and instead use the extra supply for DT squads to snipe bases, more easily covering one of Skytoss’s few weaknesses in the lategame.
I’m definitely opposed to this change, but I think that is overlooking being able to add an extra 100 supply of cost efficient units to existing armies in pre-max situations. The longer it takes for the terran or protoss to reach that max supply, the more supply inefficient units like roaches are able to really shine and do a good job, and in turn inflict casualties that delay that max supply army.
Only in the extreme late game. I mean do people realize that maxing out on Skytoss or mech is kinda hard unless you won 10 minutes ago and the opponent doesn’t know it yet.
Lag would be a serious concern…but Zerg not being able to fight 300/300 skytoss or mech armies is not really a concern (I doubt they couldn’t fight them either. An extra 100 supply of zerg units within context of remaxing is no joke).
Regardless of whether you overwhelm the enemy with massive numbers of cheap units, or manage to build up a 300/300 supply-efficient army, the fact of the matter is that units and compositions in this game scale differently from each-other; and everything is currently balanced with the expectation of a 200/200 supply cap.
This is one of the reasons why team-games are pretty much excluded from balance discussions; at least when it comes to how actual units and spells operate.
The Patches mod by the way has several Zerg units which can get an upgrade to reduce their supply cost (Roaches going from 2 to 1 supply and Swarm Hosts going from 3 to 2 supply). I think from what I have observed so far that these supply change upgrades are a big mistake in the Patches mod (many of his other ideas are pretty cool including tanks firing on the move) and Roaches and Swarm Hosts instead should get other late game upgrades to keep them relevant (I proposed one recently for the roach getting a DoT or damage over time (i.e. poison) attack bonus upgrade.
The main problem I see with a 300/300 supply is that is a big change to the game and certain units (especially those with long range and high health) end up having force multipliers applied to them in this situation because once you get a critical mass of units any weaker units (especially melee) will die almost instantly before doing any damage. In other words the “death ball” strategy of massing powerful high damage units with long range like Thors or Carriers which are not really very good until you get a lot of them. Having a 300 supply army also potentially allows for “mass caster” type builds which were a problem in WC3 because casters were only 2 supply and had a weak attack but good enough when combined with their buff and debuff spells to beat non-caster units. I could see with 300/300 that mass infestor (constant fungaling) or mass storm builds would be an issue just because of the sheer number of casters you would accumulate provided you were careful about not losing them in battle. Just imagine mass Raven in TvT which is an annoying enough troll build if you don’t scout it early and needs to be beat usually with mass vikings which makes these kind of games super dumb one way or the other.
You could also do a more conservative change to 225 or even 250, but the Starcraft universe has always had 200/200 be their traditional supply cap everyone recognizes and understands so it is more likely if any supply changes were made, you would get the supply cost reduced for certain types of units rather than have a global increase in the supply cap.
Well, Zerg can fill more supply earlier in the game than Protoss and Terran can, but there still comes a point before max supply where the opponent reaches a critical amount of supply-efficient that makes the opponent largely safe against even a much higher number of supply-inefficient units - unless spellcasters are used to level the playing field.
Like, yes, maxing out on Roaches is a strategy that has been used in some situations to overwhelm an opponent, but:
That really only works if you can defeat the opponent before they get that critical amount of supply-efficient units - and that threshold is not max supply. Increasing the max supply does not change this.
You can only fit so many units in the same amount of space - there comes a point where not all of them are in the fight at once because they can’t all be on the front lines, that’s why the surviving until reaching that critical amount of supply-efficient units works to defeat that strategy. Air units can clump but that makes them more susceptible to splash damage. Increasing the max supply does not change this.
It becomes harder and harder to win with supply-inefficient units as upgrades are researched, and increasing the max supply threshold doesn’t change upgrade timings.
The limitations of income and production rate still apply regardless of the max supply. A higher max supply only benefits the max-out strategy to the extent that the income and production rate can fill it faster than the opponent can get to the critical threshold of supply-efficient units.
Increasing max army supply is relevant to the game stages with max armies.
There’s a reason it’s called the “meat grinder.” Skytoss (with HT/Archon support, and maybe some Immortals) and traditional Mech (with Ghost support as-needed) by-design are, in their complete and upgraded forms, “it does not matter what you throw at me, I have enough damage output to grind it all to dust” compositions. There is no mix or re-mix of Zerg units that can dent these compositions in direct combat in any way that is efficient enough to make meaningful headway without either:
The opponent making a very serious positional mistake.
The Zerg player using spellcasters to pick them apart.
The best strategy is “beat them before they get there” for a reason.
I though team games were excluded from balance because you can’t balance a game around one person doing X and another person doing Y to create impossible synergies without absolutely destroying 1vs1 balance.
The answer to Skytoss has always been “don’t let it happen”. Just like how the answer to BC Thor Lib is “Don’t let it happen”.
If 300/300 supply becomes a thing, which is interesting for casual games and team games, it won’t matter all too much outside of extreme late game scenarios where one player isn’t getting trolled by another.
You could be correct, this would have to be tested. It’s impossible to know how the game would unfold with this change. It’s possible that Zerg would be unable to deal with an additional 100 supply of opposing stronger tech, though if that is the case I would argue perhaps there’s something wrong with Zerg in it’s CURRENT state, especially against late game orbital’s, that is a problem for both Zerg and Protoss.
I also believe however that it’s possible that 200/200 is the lid keeping Zerg in check. There’s the possibility that this would make Zerg stronger, considering Drone pump’s, and a 300/300 Zerg with remax potential, and Zerg possibly ALWAYS have a large supply lead of inefficient units the entire game.
Who knows unless tested across the board, from newbies to pros.
It is possible to reason through the effects a change to the game could have based on existing knowledge of how the game works.
Game changes should be reasoned through before they go to testing. Does that absolutely prove how all the change would impact the game? No - neither does testing that occurs in a relatively short timeframe really, but that doesn’t mean testing should be skipped before a change goes into the actual live game.
Except we know from how the game works currently that as both sides’ armies get bigger, supply-inefficient units become weaker and weaker as supply-efficient units reach a critical threshold where they become a “meat-grinder.” The only time a maxout-overwhelm strategy would be possible for the Zerg player to take advantage of is before the opponent reaches that threshold, which is already fairly rare with a max of 200 supply.