one might think that. if i recall correct my cyclones tests on orientExpress (with the train as an top notch cyclone target) didnt show that the train dies faster then with other swann setups. but thats long time ago, maybe im 'membering wrong
my ideas to your replay.
i dont see a good reason to not super fast expand on this map. swann has big ramp up time anyhow and the later you expand, the bigger the ramp up.
clearing out camps this early with factory is fun but not beneficial. fourther i coulnd stand building an armory this early and not get upgrades rolling ;). that just beeing said about the BO.
my standard BO on maps that allow fast expand is always quick factory into 2 cannon (vs rocks) into whatever i want. even if i go full p1 i delay the beam upgrade a tiiiiny bit but a level 2 beam isnt not needed that early.
the first “real” fight you take with units is at ~10min and you lose 3 cyclones although you face again well kiteable units. that is a brutal outcome in my book 
ill might ad other thoughts later on 
my p1 on shuttle map
h ttps://file.io/wpBDRJjfxEtf
I think you’re being quite disingenuous with how you’ve cared to view the replay.
Compared to your replay, which is done on P1, the build order on P1 has no reason to get Drill Upgrades first (as it loses drill abilities, which is the main point of Drill Opener). So the premise you’ve given as a comparison is this:
- Look, I get to sit comfortably and safely at home with an AoE drill while opening fast expand. <== But that really showed nothing to anyone who knows how to play Swann, as you could of done nothing with P1 and you’d still be safe with your drill…
As for the replays, the first real fights were done long before you’ve realized. It is to the untrained eyes (and also perhaps with heavy bias) that you cannot see what went on prior to 10min.
- All 3 Bonus areas were cleared out by 7min, which even with your P1 drill you could not do.
- 2nd Wave was cleared not by Zeratul but by Concentrated Beam (I did this on purpose to show those who are actually interested).
- As my ally pushed into the base close to the 1st set of shuttle shortly after, both ARES and Concentrated Beam are ready again. Since he took the initiative to kill that 3rd wave + shuttle, I didn’t bother wasting those (and opt to help push base with him after).
The point here is you have the capability to kill that single Wave of Shuttle + 3rd Wave together with Concentrated Beam... and still have ARES left over.Whereas in your P1 game, the same wave came to your expansion and it is only due to your AoE beam that you survived relatively ok. - The 10min (1st Bonus) wave definitely caught me a little off guard. As I wasn’t sure with an active ally if they will choose to help, solo, or otherwise. So being slightly out of position is what causes a couple of Cyclone loss.
- Nevertheless it was taken care of with them with ease.
Overall, nothing really changed. Drill Opening’s main stay has always been having a far larger presence between 4min to 8min, between early game to early to mid transition. The standard Factory 1st into 2 static fast opener by design removes the player with this feature [in exchange for a slightly faster economy, by ~45sec].
I only posted these to help those interested in learning Swann to have a better understanding. You are welcome to continue with your build order, as it is completely fine. However, please don’t be so disingenuous as to pretend you want to learn, only to make poor assessment at how well you’ve done on P1 versus how my P0 replay did.
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Well, my original question if there is a scenario where cyclone (builds) are to supirior other compositions is answered, i guess.
Real fight aka your regular army gets involved.
Nobody ever said Cyclones are magically superior. I don’t think that kind of sentiment can be used on most COs? I’ve simply laid out what Cyclones bring to Swann’s arsenal.
And if your concept of a real fight is defined as 10min… then your replay similarly showed you had not engaged in a “real fight” until after 10min… so what is your point here?
Disregarding facts and objective data isn’t going to motivate you to learn. Facts are that based on the replays, despite you using P1 with standard opener you’ve cleared less, done less, and pushed less.
I mean I’m not here to convince you to play differently. Just here to present the data and what they clearly point to. If you continue to believe the “Earth is Flat”, so to speak. It won’t matter to me.
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I played with a Swann player on OE who said “cyclones melt trains”. Seemed to work out fairly well (although I could’nt pay too close attn due to the usual)
You won’t need to, here’s a replay to demonstrate the difference:
https://file.io/pG4UzIRusSnz
People vastly over-estimate how “good” tanks are versus how “bad” cyclones are. The replay details essentially the following:
- Cost: Tank 150/125/3 vs Cyclone: 150/100/3 (both 36s production)
- Bulk: Tank 192HP vs 240HP (both with 1armor)
- Range: 13 sieged vs 12?(initial?) + 3 with research (point is it’s longer)
- Lock-on cast range is shorter than post lock-on kite range btw, just to clarify.
- Damage: 90dmg per 3sec, 30DPS (when sieged) vs 18dmg per 1 sec, 18DPS
- Lock-on (with upgrade x2 dmg) 1000dmg per 20sec, for 50DPS
- Due to the auto-cast nature, it is highly unlike your Cyclone will ever do “less damage” than your Tank… unless you’re purposefully turning Lock-on off autocast and never using them…
In almost all aspects Cyclones are better than Tanks. Not only do they move-attack, they can also deal with both ground and air. It is only having to apply Lock-on, move them that makes them far more complicated than Tanks by compairons. To make that even easier, they do auto-cast Lock-on (though to be fair, to their advantage and detriment).
Again, not convincing anyone to use Cyclones over Tanks or any other units. Blind calling Herc/Tank better without knowing facts is just... ignorant. It's different to use them for sure, which in my opinion is the only reason most feel that way at all.
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Geez, I understand what you’re trying to say, but intentionally or not you’re being pretty disingenuous with the comparison.
The biggest advantage Tanks have over Cyclones is that they have much higher per hit damage and splash. Both of which gives Tanks a distinct advantage over Cyclones in matchups that do show up consistently enough that it bears mentioning over a hand wave.
Not to say Tanks are just better either, they aren’t.
If you felt that way then it wasn’t intentional at all, at least on my part. I specifically included all damage values so that the DPS comparison isn’t misinterpreted as the be all and end all:
See? Moreover, the comparisons wasn’t strictly damage only either, so…
Now if people can’t read, that’s not on me I feel like 
. Again, I’ve asked nobody to play Cyclones over Tanks… ever…
Quite in fact, it is always the opposite where Cyclone gets dragged into some point comparison as to why Tanks are soooo much better when they really aren’t. Both are equally good in my books.
And you’re right, there is an advantage to be had for wiping units with big damage before your units ever taking damage… hmmm I wonder why people don’t give drill’s ability similar considerations whenever they drag drill through all the mud…
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Seemed like to me that Cyclones are an answer seeking a problem?
Tanks solve ground problems. They have hitscan and splash which Cyclones lack and can be used in small numbers with a Herc. They can also be rebuilt which makes them mutation resistant.
Goliath solve air. They need a certain critical mass but there aren’t any dedicated air waves before 10 minutes anyway so this isn’t really a problem.
Thor solve light air. Firebats solve light ground. Together they make short work of comps like Explosive Threats (especially with Thor’s rebuild ability after they get abducted).
Wraith solve the need to occasionally snipe objectives.
Maybe I could practise with Cyclones and get them to a place where they were occasionally useful but when would I use them? Against Classic mech? Is there any other comp?
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This is exactly what I mean whenever it comes to Cyclones on the forum 
.
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Actually, I’d say Cyclones are better compared to Goliath as a generalist unit than compared against Tanks.
In that sense, they’re worse against siege air than Goliath, but better against light air (due to Goliath having relatively poor non-armoured anti-air, and a overkill concern).
Goliath are easier to mass due to cheaper cost, and due to a decent 8 upgraded range they do alright against ground regardless of their medium size. Cyclones do more damage to larger targets, but suffer against massed small units compared to Goliath.
Against objectives, it’s a toss up which is better. Against both air and ground targetable, Goliath do better (at 8 or less range, of course). On the other hand, Cyclone do much better against pure ground targets, and about the same to armoured air targets.
Cyclone auto Lock-On can be turned off and used manually as sniper when needed, such as against ground hybrids or heroics in DoN.
I’m struggling to see how the comparisons work out.
In early game opening tanks is almost always going to be solid due to hit scan splash working so well starting with just 4 tanks and not even requiring healing.
Moving from early to mid isn’t it almost always going to be more tanks or switch to Goliath? Against comps with air and ground and most objectives Goliath will come out ahead leaving pure ground (more tanks) or pure air.
Terran:
- Shadow tech: tanks+Goliath will shut this down but Cyclone seems okay?
- Dominion Battlegroup: maybe? But I feel like I’d prefer to lose Goliath to Yamatos than more expensive Cyclones.
- Classic Mech: not pure air but seems a candidate. Still seems better to lose Goliath to Yamatos than Cyclones? Plus the dual attack of Goliath will be better no?
Zerg:
- Devouring Scourge: seems the only candidate as every other one includes both air and ground even if only broodlings which would require additional units (Firebats?)
Protoss:
- Siege of Storms: seems best candidate as otherwise have to deactivate lock on and manually target Carriers right?
For the opening as well its looking like you’ll end 2-4 upgrades (firebat+cyclone upgrades) just to be on par with Siege Tanks that only need 1 upgrade (albeit at a slightly higher unit cost).
Do Cyclone upgrades require Armoury?
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Oh I EMP the excrement out of Protoss fleets and Hybrid Dominators. Then make them eat it.
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Thats totaly valid from my experience i prefer doing other micro stuff with nova when engaing a protoss army. Like nova abilities, hunterseeker missiles, defense drone or top bar bombing. Actually emp would be in my prio order, but turns out ghosts are to deep down in my ctrl grp that my tab selection shows them late (and im to old and lazy to improve my ctrl grps)
Its like nova has so many tools to engage that its a question of your apm how many you are able to use to ur Advantage. But i agree that emp against p should be prioritized. But thats smiliar to that godlike fenix sentry shields (-50% dmg inc) - some good stuff rarely gets used. Atleast by random allies 
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I’d really like to use cyclones more, so I’ll definitely give them a try soon. I can imagine they’d be especially good against avengered air units.
I do question some of your calculations. Not that the pure DPS stats are wrong, they’re not, just that real-game factors can make a huge difference.
- Cyclone base attack should see very little use against enemy waves since it’s such short range. I can see it for kiting ling/bane.
- Most larger ground units are armoured, thus the tanks don’t lose DPS. Cyclones are clearly better vs mass archon.
- Tank damage vs most ground waves will surely beat cyclones due to the clumping and splash damage.
So, I’m thinking cyclones make sense against quite a few Protoss comps. Will check other races and flesh out some more ideas to try.
Most of the damage dealt by Cyclones are from Lock-on. As far as I understand it is considered spell damage.
As I mentioned though, it is to their advantage and detriment because of that. As against mass low HP units like Zerglings, this becomes an overkill issue. Then again, players not using a couple of Hellbats or a Flaming Betty against Zerglings (but would rather use Cyclones or Tanks) are… well asking for trouble lol.
I’m glad to see people would give them a try. Like I said before, really when you look at them, they are given a bad reputation. Things like fragility when they actually have more bulk (immortal protocol is terrible given the cost of it lol). The DPS (tested in the replay) is higher. It doesn’t render Tanks pointless at all either (which the die hards seem to always jump onto, every time it comes to this kind of discussion). They have higher 1st hit, splash, no interruption (ie. lost lock-on).
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So my question is, am I going to win more games with Swann getting better at using my current unit comps or by learning to use Cyclones?
Are there games that I would lose with my current unit comp preferences (Siege tank/goliath, firebat/thor or wraith) that I would win with Cyclones? Is there some mutations that make Cyclones a preferable choice?
Just about any situation I think of gives weight to either the splash of Siege tanks or the dual attack of Goliath.
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You represent a good portion of players who initial their question from (at least what I consider) “why bother learning this”. So when your question is formed in that way, then my answer is always:
No, you won’t learn a thing nor will you win more.
This isn’t an attack on you or anyone like you. It is a simple truth that the whole point of Cyclone discussion is how they function, and it was never how you should replace all your gameplay with Cyclone.
Yet, time and time again, all that ever happens is “well, A performs better than B, so I would never use A”. I mean that’s great, so move on? Let those interested in learning how to use A, do so?
Swap your question to any other unit for any CO at all, you’ll have the same predicament:
- Will Stettman win more games if he used Mecha Corruptors vs Mecha Hydra?
- Will Mengsk win more games if he used Sky Fury vs Rock Troopers?
- Will Artanis win more games if he used Tempests vs Dragoons?
No, the answer is always no because this isn’t a strategic win. There is no 1-beats-all-comp unit in coop (or in Starcraft). It is always about learning each tool to a CO’s arsenal.
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