Need Tips on Swann Strategies

Co-op Missions Discussion
#41

Your initial post was not clear:

You should had been more specific to what was boring. This let us to believe, his entire game was boring.

Using drill + Factory in early game is not boring, but if you need to play like that all throughout a game (like in a mutation game) than I would say that is boring. But his early game play shows, he had to delegate many different things producing SCVs, moving svcs from mining minerals to gas, building supply depots while moving his factory and pointing his laser. This part it’s not boring, I know because I do this on some of my games, quite a lot of actions in that duration.

Yes I agree, they are costly and fragile. This is why I don’t use or I don’t use them well enough.

The second to third wave Fear handled those waves with only a few cyclones with one top bar ability? He also handled the second and third set of shards without massing them. I guess he’s had practice with them to use them properly.

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#42

I first met Vin on here discussing this exact issue. He even showed me his Herc/Tank gameplay. He’s quite decent at it, so I can understand his passion and thereafter bias lol. And he’s purely being pretty biased.

I happen to random Swann, so here’s a replay of me still ‘opening with drill’ and using tanks, then transitioned into Cyclones (cuz well… I can lol).

https://file.io/UOTzaIvnnkHU

The point here is to demonstrate what I said earlier:

Of course, there’s a lot going on that influence this particular replay, such as:

  1. Being on OE, no need for Herc.
  2. Slower wave 1, although this really isn’t an issue given the Factory timing.
  3. I went 12-workers only, which I wouldn’t recommend to people without experience/practice.
  4. Unit choice and investment choice early on (knowing my ally is P3 Mengsk).

The result of the game was pretty evenly split, ~50% kill and train damage ratio (2 of the more important values on OE). For in-depth look, replay will show that “it wasn’t a case of relying on ally heavily at any point (which many often even have the awareness of :stuck_out_tongue: ).”

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#43

This was the post I first commented on. This post ok. Does this make it clear now what my original post said FearWhalins? You made a lighthearted comment about how no one was mentioning the Drill Opener, and this is what I replied to.

I wasn’t going any further than just replying to this, you just naturally assumed I was replying to your other post right above it even though battlenet notifications tell you in the top right which post I was replying to even if I didn’t quote the exact text in my post.

Does that clear up everything for you?

Jeez dude. You really WAY overthought what was just banter.

#44

Kind of disingenuous of you to say that. Considering all the discussion (at least 3 additional posts) henceforth was pretty focused on that. You, yourself going on further explaining-not-explaining why it is boring.

And now you say that everything after the first “cuz it’s boring” comment wasn’t talking to me. Then I suppose I wasn’t talking to you either? So why take it so negatively (like you are now)? Or we can naturally understand the topic and discussion as a whole involves everyone’s posts, unless otherwise specifically indicated, addressed, or quoted (which is why there is such a function).

This is the issue with people on here lol. Can’t have a normal actual productive discussion with actual evidence. Nothing offensive was really said, they just have a fit.

I think it’s fine, no need to further justify either way. Everyone still plays the way they prefer. No StarCraft player was harmed in this production :joy:

Like I said, if your intention was to not explain then simply don’t as you are choosing now.

#45

Because you’re going increasingly into detail about the build expecting some kind of detailed reply from me on my opinion when I never intended to have that conversation in the first place. I was simply giving you a tongue in cheek reply to your original “not to be taken seriously” post, and your misunderstanding of that has caused this thread to spiral off into this tangeant.

I’m just cutting it off where it should have been from the start.

#46

Can someone explain when cyclones are ever a good unit? One might argue that cyclones are good to kite but i rather us defsense matrix on low hp units, micro them back or put into herc. Exrending battles seems unnecessary to me. I play p3 tank/gol/thor and maybe few helions if i lack gas for a moment.
Otherwise i go p1 full wraith (all prestige in laser)

#47

It’s not that they’re a bad unit in most situations, the problem is that science vessel goliath and herc-tank is a much easier (and often more effective for the effort).

I’d say the same goes for wraith in most situations, apart from sniping objectives the stompy mechs do just as or better a job.

So I’d say it’s more for variety’s sake than anything.

#48

If you look at Swann’s aresnal as whole, the main strategies are the following:

  1. Herc/Tank +/- Goliaths.
  2. Mass Cyclones +/- Hellbats
  3. Mass Wraiths
  4. Static
  5. Mass Goliaths

Out of all of these strategies, the one with the steady DPS ramp up is actually Cyclones. Their Lock-on ability allows for quite the consistent damage output (quite high out of the gate at that) throughout the game. Their downfall, as the reason why many don’t use them, is their relative high cost to fragility. However, that particular issue isn’t really Cyclones-only (all Swann’s units are pretty close in that regard). And when used with practice and experience, Cyclone makes this more or less a non-issue. <<=== Note: that doesn’t make them better than other strategies, in terms of against all comps, maps, and mutations by any means.

On the other hand, when we look at the ever-so-popular Tank/Herc, less popular but more so than Cyclone - mass Wraiths, and the extremely bad mass Goliaths, these 3 all require a common key point. And that point is critical mass. This isn’t to say you can’t push out with 2-3 of these units, it’s just their damage output and manouvrability are quite poor. This requirement meant that Swann cannot do much until that point, generally without taking a high risk to heavy loss early on.

  • For Tanks, while their DPS is far higher, they suffer from mobility and find themselves vulnerable (especially while low in numbers and cannot essentially kill-all).
  • For Wraiths, without a mass, their DPS isn’t high enough (even with the newly implemented movement fix), but they don’t suffer from mobility.
  • Goliaths are just generally horrid, just slow enough to be caught, poor damage output (I would not recommend any doing this, except for nostalgia for SC1/BW lol).

So overall, all this talk (especially from me) to promote Cyclone. It isn’t to over-glorify them. It is that functionally, they do compliment Swann’s biggest weakest (that most players seem to complain about the thiccboi for). And that is he suffers from ‘slow roll-out’ and/or ‘require too much build up’. These sentiments are actually an artifact of the strategies chosen. Part of the reason why I continually promote others to try Drill-opening is that it actually supports and mitigate this issue, as it doesn’t prevent the player from going Herc/Tank even if that is their go-to.

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#49

The crazy thing about his drill is that if you go Heavy Weapons Specialist and quickly max the drill you can AFK and still get more kills than the average Swann player! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

P.S. Please don’t AFK, just make whatever army you fancy and then kill stuff. :stuck_out_tongue:

#50

Compared to a herc/tank build your point isnt a problem. The first attack is fend of by static d or ally, the second with calldown if required. At this point first herc/4 tanks is able to reign terror. There is no gap that needs to solved

#51

That is because you aren’t pushing. So of course you can sit back and defend. That is never a problem. In fact, that’s not even a choice for Herc/Tank because it renders you incapable to push at that moment.

If that was the issue, then going Static Defence would be equally viable lol. You’ve missed the point :slight_smile:

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#52

While I agree Cyclones are faster to an extent, Herc-tank is perfectly able to push as well. It’s long range, high mobility after all.

#53

‘pushing’ with two bats and two cylones isnt do much. I prefer ramping 1-2min and go pushing effectively with herc/tank. Bots in most cases fill the gap quied good until that point. Ps static is ment to bild fastbuild on requirement and then sold

#54

The main point here has been skewed again towards Herc/Tank vs Cyclone.

Both of these are viable. The difference has always been and will always be “one more capable to push out earlier, but can’t pack as hard of a punch” while the other “can’t push out as early, but due to the build up packs a bigger punch”.

There is no effective way to explain on forum to players who don’t play cyclone what that difference is. I’ve experienced this far too many times lol. Just know there is a difference.

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#55

its gone? 20charsssss

#56

If it’s gone then probably? Most of these sites are free and only retain for x length or x downloads, I think.

#57

can you upload again? im curious about cyclone plays

#58

The one you quoted I believe is a tank replay. Although I can definitely find some time to upload another.

#59

People said it’s pretty good against heroic units like Skank.

#60

Here you go, I played one today while with a friend. Intended to do it solo, but there was some miscommunication. Either way, the timings of the build are there. You can compare that to the more commonly seen “standard opening”. I’ll link both.

Here’s CtG’s original video that I think in part popularized this opening (which is found on starcraft2coop.com. Very nicely, I can link the YouTube video itself:

Here’s my replay, although I believe CtG has also done Drill Opening as well. I couldn’t find it easily:

https://file.io/F3labiOajZvv

You can also opt to make a 2nd Factory to get production started earlier (as you’ll generally be able to support 2 Factory on 2-base econ). In the replay, I started the Starport early (earlier than needed) out of habit of 12-worker.

Basically, I find both quite similar with Drill Opening able to push faster due to its abilities coming online. Meanwhile, the drawback is that if you too heavily rely on the drill’s abilities without the necessary macro/unit production, you will find yourself slow-pacing mid-game.

Anyway, that only happens if you don’t make units of course. I find this one can transition into Herc/Tank just fine. Hope it helps.

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