Ok, I’ll upload one later today when I get a chance.
I actually like cyclone build against enemy air. Goliaths kind of overkill against air, so having Lock-On on autofire allows you you focus and kill important units at a much safer range while still moving. Plus, they’re great against enemy liberators.
Here we go, hopefully I used this mac correctly… gotta say that playing on mac is a chore all on its own lol…
I haven’t used non-12w for awhile, the build order might be a bit off (especially on RtK) but overall the gist is there. I believe I’ve put out a comparison a long time ago for “the standard opener” vs “drill opener”. The economical impact is very similar. The key difference is that stand leads to the usual tank/herc, which has a slower roll out (but a bigger punch ~mid-game by comparison). However, it lacks the early benefit of drill, which helps to propel the game a bit faster (especially with equally active ally).
I feel the same, I find any time Tank or Goliath is used, there’s an overkill issue. Tank isn’t a big problem because it fires so fast and hard that it generally isn’t impacted as much (not to mention they splash). Goliaths themselves are so poor in that regard.
In this particular replay, I hit probably the worst Cyclone comp (Robo, or if terran Mech). Of course, I also used only Cyclone to showcase exactly where their ‘true’ standalone power is in Swann’s arsenal. In practice, against many comps, adding some Hellbat is usually recommended.
Oh one more thing to add, 12-w Swann works perfectly fine even to solo this particular mission. Part of the problem I ran into in this game going 2-base is trying to remember roughly when to get what. One of the biggest issue that came about was my decision to get certain things were off. And that lead to ‘reactive gameplay’ rather than ‘proactive gameplay’, which in coop is a world of difference (whether you’re doing mutations or just simple brutal).
You kept us on the edge of the seat! Letting that first wave into your base and handling them, the suspense! Is that your go-to build order at start of every game? I usually modify my build order on RtK to have betties up before the first wave. Or you did this on purpose for the suspense?!!
I guess that’s the typical use of the laser+Factory early game. Usually I start siege tanks production when the second shards pop. Now I have some new ideas I want to try on p1
Thanks for sharing.
Nah, that’s just me being rusty for not using 2-base forever lol. The initial SCV distribution is crucial. 2scv on 1st supply rather than 3 is perfect, my crappy mac mouse allowed a 3-SCV selection hence… lmao. Similarly, 3 SCV (even 4 on RtK) for Factory into Armory. As seen here, the timing was off as a result.
That said, it is completely “get-away-able” as can be seen (so I wasn’t too worried). For anyone else thinking of using it though, do be careful to have the betty up for zerglings. It is about the only comp that can reck on 1st wave.
That game is honestly a bit longer than need to be. I debated to do the bonus. I debated on 3rd base before or after bonuses, etc. all of that lead to some incoherence (than normal). Ultimately a 22?min game, which is slow af for me lol.
I can think of more boring ways to play, but it’s kind of difficult.
On the topic of Swann gameplay. This would be an average 12w game with your fairly normal/common random partner.
No idea what you’re trying to say here. If you don’t enjoy Cyclones that’s on you? It’s just a showcase of how Cyclones function overall. To be perfectly frank, Herc/Tank is the boring-est way to play Swann (next to perhaps the non-aggressive static lol).
The drill opener is what is boring, specifically the float factories style.
Macro Swann with units asap is more fun.
It’s not too bad to split the difference though, is it? Your tanks aren’t too delayed if you pick up the first drill upgrade asap, then get no. 2 after the first herc/tank is done.
That’s pretty much what I do normally. I have it split so that my Vespene Drones are 40 minerals. That’s my sweet spot.
This is actually good for some mutators, but it comes down to preference.
I like Herc + tanks, Goliaths, Thors. I don’t touch play wraiths / cyclones but some people like those style.
Swann have flexibilities, he’s multi-dimensional.
I’d just have to disagree is all. Without using Drill Opener, no matter how good you are as Swann, you are gated by the build order/ opening order. That’s just a fact.
This is exactly right. And it is also why I prefer Drill Opener myself. Even if you do choose to go Herc/Tank, this particular opener doesn’t delay that by a minute at most. Whereas the non-drill oriented build orders forces the player into a heavy macro, which Swann isn’t the ‘slowest’ but certainly not fast (but definitively remove his early game presence.
Precisely, nothing wrong with either opening build orders. It’s about understanding the commander as a whole. Mastery is the goal (or so I hope it is for everyone who’s passionate about coop). Knowing which opener has what advantages or shortcomings is part of that.
I wouldn’t opt for the factory into CC opener mostly because unless you know your partner (who is using an early presence CO, like Dehaka/Abby… and uses it well). Then there’s little value to get Herc/Tank for that mid-game boost (which both of those examples incidentally falls slightly).
I guess you just have a disdain for cheese strats and I can respect that.
May be overkill, but at the cost of the Immortality Protocol mastery (same power set), Structure Health (up to +60%) also helps with this
Oh I never said it was a “bad” opener. I use it myself on some mutations. I just said it was boring.
I don’t understand why you’d think that. The difference here is mostly before 6min mark (aka early game). Unless your “boring” is comparing cyclone to tank/herc. That’s a preference thing for unit function over opening build order.
Drill opener requires you to actively move factory, select drill target, while macro at home between continuous SCV production, supply check/build, and tech/transfer scvs. On top of all this, you’d be accurately casting top bar beams/pulse before 2-base saturation to maximize drill function/damage.
Standard opener (and I say loosely cuz many have read the sc2coop or tl build order). All you’re doing is the latter portion, aka SCV production, supply check, tech up. In fact the tech up is so much simpler cuz you’re not even researching drill. You’re literal only focus is making sure you get that Herc loaded and roll out (which just can’t happen that quickly… hence stuck at home during early game).
To me, objectively it is a simpler (less action) opening sequence. Doesn’t make sense to be “boring”, if anything perhaps a little more action required is all to open using drill…
I’ve never commented on Cyclones so I don’t know why you keep mentioning those. I don’t use Cyclones because I don’t like them, I don’t like them in multiplayer either and am always annoyed when I have to rely on them.
I simply do not like relying heavily on the drill as Swann.
Still didn’t really explain why though. You are saying it “relies” on drill. That sentiment is true but there is no ‘reliance’ in the sense you’re implying anyway. Neither opening builds (often) requires an early static (especially if your ally is totally poor).
On the flip side, going straight into tanks relies on them just the same. They come online later and they don’t do any better until a critical mass (hence midgame timing).
I just don’t see how that’s different (in terms of boring lol). Also, not asking you or anyone to play drill opener. Just asking to justify on the comment (since you’re being quite biased towards it).
You asked why no one was mentioning the drill opener. I answered you. I wasn’t mentioning it because it’s boring.
It’s boring because it’s a single literal point and click unit that doesn’t leave your base. Micromanaging what it’s attacking is tedious, not fun.
I never once mentioned Cyclones before but you kept bringing them up, I don’t like them because their lock on mechanic is clunky and they are too expensive for how fragile they are. They don’t synergize with any other unit in Swann’s roster except MAYBE Science Vessels and Hellions. So if you’re going to use them, you’re going to use them en masse or nothing at all. If that’s your gameplan, Wraiths are a better option that aren’t frustrating units to actually use.
Again, your explanation doesn’t make sense. The whole post previously was comparing the literal difference of the two. One being you’re doing nothing. The other (drill) you’re clicking frantically before 6min mark.
Opening with drill isn’t clicking using nothing but drill all game long. I’m not sure where the confusion is at all. Anyway, this is obviously pointless cuz you can’t provide much evidence (seems like you don’t even understand the difference atm?).