I’d play your RTS for sure.
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I respect WH as a franchise, but that stuff is too bleak and too much about insignificance of individual (unless they are some godly cult) for me to get into it.
You play Total War Warhammer, brother? If so, what race?
You mentioned the manual sets up wars that could last for decades. It didn’t though. @Kelthar elaborated on this well.
I’m not trying to convince you. Whether you like their execution or not is your business.
As I mentioned, reading fan re-writes for a franchise reboot is something that does not interest me. Sorry.
I think I do though. You believe the whole story and premise to have good potential, but was horribly executed and presented from the get-go.
The challenge for us in relating to you, I think, is that even when you say you just want to discuss StarCraft, you’re actually always trying to discuss a complete reboot/fan rewrite of the series, which many of us here are not keen on.
We tend to discuss what has actually happened in-lore, not what could have been if it was completely rebuilt from the ground up.
If you find discussing on this board that frustrating and it’s working you up that much, stopping is likely your best option.
Having said that, if you ever do make an RTS, I think it would be fun to give it a try.
I’m referring to the scope of the Terran conflict from the manual, and then how it changed in-game. The Terrans were focused on civil wars, the Confederacy retaining power and terrorist groups, like the Sons of Korhal, rebelling against them.
The arrival of the Zerg and then the Protoss changed all of this and the overall scope and path of those civil wars. The Confederacy turned to try control the Zerg to make a new super weapon, while at the same time they began to be whipped out by these new invaders. Suddenly, redneck rebels weren’t the same concern in the face of greater conflict.
The Sons of Korhal had no real shot against the Confederacy in the grand scheme of things, until they obtained the ability to use the Zerg against them through stolen Confederate tech.
The presence of the Zerg and Protoss allowed the Sons of Korhal to capitalize on the chaos and urgency they brought to the sector and do the impossible: topple the Confederacy and come out on top of the Terrans!
This was a twist and certainly a change in scope from what was presented in-manual as the story evolved.
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The only reason I haven’t switched to 40k is because the tyranids are void of personalities. That’s their whole appeal.
The whole reason I liked the zerg over the tyranids was because they took the tyranids and gave them personalities. That immediately makes them more versatile as a storytelling tool.
Where StarCraft went outside my interest was turning the zerg into a slave race with loony slave masters and ultimately into copies of the formics from Ender’s Game.
I think so lowly of the StarCraft canon that I do not consider it worth discussion that is not purely derisive.
And speaking of rewrites, below I present a heavily abridged account of a potential planned rewrite from start to end:
Revised history of universe
The xel’naga do their infinite cycle. Amon decides to ruin cycle.
Amon uplifts protoss. Amon creates khala to control protoss. This control fails and the protoss rebel. Protoss expel Amon from their space.
Amon uplifts zerg. Amon creates Overmind to control zerg. This control fails and the zerg rebel. Zerg exterminate Amon and all xel’naga, consume xel’naga essence. Quest to acquire purity of essence.
Zerg spy on protoss empire. Zerg calculate that protoss are not viable target. Protoss essence, and thus their purity of form, cannot be assimilated for unknown reasons. Protoss military is too powerful and would ultimately win any war.
Zerg discover terrans on border of protoss empire. Terrans have purity of form and essence compatible with zerg. Zerg plan to assimilate terrans, calculate that terrans are determinant in planned war against protoss. Terran purity of form should allow zerg to assimilate protoss essence.
Zerg, terrans, and protoss wage war across Koprulu sector. Possibly beyond. War lasts for an undefined period of time before resolving.
Ultimately, one of two possible outcomes occurs:
Outcome #1: the zerg are exterminated. The terrans and protoss may or may not survive too.
Outcome #2: the zerg devour the terrans and protoss. Zerg gain purity of form to become xel’naga, warp infinite cycle to create hellish nightmare universe.
Hopefully that bit of context should help understand my POV for anyone who cares.
How well has that worked out? I’m pretty sure SC2 drove away most fans who cared about story. The only people left are the peanut gallery and those who can somehow turn their brains off to enjoy schlock. These discussions look more unpleasant and exhausting than anything else.
SC3 is only going to make things worse, but has a non-zero chance of reinvigorating this anemic fandom. Assuming it ever comes out.
Your support is appreciated. However, to be honest I lack the funds, expertise, time, and motivation to make that more than a pipe dream. When my initial motive is sheer disgust with Blizzard, it is hard to motivate myself to do anything.
Is there anybody else besides myself (and Gradius) who wants to see the zerg depicted as villains with personalities and not soulless slaves to deranged terran mutants or incongruous space hippies?
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Present! And let’s burn a space hippie or two while we’re at it.
You really do hate Umoja.
By the by, what’s your status on Tarantino movies?
Honestly
A) Yes
B) that’s where Niadra or Abathur seem to be heading
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There was enough people getting confused by, and complaining about, the ramp bug added to Campaign in the last patch, so enough people are indeed still playing and enjoying it.
It doesn’t feel nearly as impressive, or sensible, as when the Overmind was doing it back when the protoss were still a galactic empire.
Why the heck are Niadra and Abathur wasting their time? The zerg are clearly superior to tbe terrans and protoss in every way, so fighting them will not improve the zerg. It makes far more sense to exterminate the terrans and protoss with their standard steamrolling, then find a more powerful race who can offer improvements.
That’s why my rewrite pitches change the terrans and protoss to pose an actual threat. The zerg would quickly eat them otherwise.
The mission gimmicks are serviceable enough, but the story is still terrible. Pretty much everyone agrees on that. Anybody who thinks the StarCraft story is good needs to educate themselves by reading real literature. SC3 will make matters worse in typical Blizzard fashion, if/when it comes out.
I’m disgusted with this franchise. I’m not about to leave either, even though I really should, since there aren’t any alternatives. Unless I make a StarCraft clone myself with competent writing and there’s a snowball’s chance in heck of that happening.
StarCraft lore is burning garbage and I hate it with every fiber of my being. Since there’s zero alternatives I have no recourse but to stew in my own hatred. I can’t do anything besides take out my frustration on you guys.
I’d hoped to find others who were sympathetic and open to exploring alternatives like ToxicDefiler’s pitch. You guys shredded my hopes like fruit in a blender.
You have no idea how hateful that makes me. I feel so much hate.
Honestly, most of your criticism sounds like it’s coming from somebody who wanted to hate the story before they even played the first mission, and would have hated the story no matter what.
Looking at this thread, you essentially want to rewrite the entire story (Including the original Starcraft and BW) from the ground up, to the point where it’s almost unrecognizable as Starcraft.
Why not just write your own original story instead of trying to impose your ideas on an existing story? If you want the entire storyline, all of the worldbuilding and all of the plot points to be completely different, that’s generally a sign that you’d be better served writing your own story.
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Define for me your definition “Starcraft.” Do you think it’s defined by Raynor, Kerry, and Mengsk? Their story is over now, they aren’t coming back, and SC3 is up in the air. All we can know for sure is that it will retcon SC2 to heck in typical Blizzard fashion and alienate those who liked SC2.
Blizzard has already rendered StarCraft unrecognizable all by themselves, and will continue to do so forever. It’s hypocritical of you to treat their work as sacred when they clearly have no problem profaning it themselves.
Did you read my google doc? It seems pretty recognizable to me since I went out of my way to include all the canonical factions like the Confederacy, Dominion, Daelaam, Taldarim, Ihanrii, etc.
Again, do you think StarCraft has only ever consisted of Kerry, Raynor, and Mengsk? Those are the only things I dislike, so I can understand why you would find my proposal unrecognizable if those three characters are what you think StarCraft is.
I have numerous reasons.
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I tried that numerous times and every attempt failed horribly. Nobody gave a crap and my already lacking self-esteem was further shredded. It won’t ever work anyway, so why bother trying? At least you guys respond when I touch StarCraft.
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The StarCraft story is bad writing and constantly subject to retcons. Blizzard doesn’t respect it. StarCraft 3 will be just as much of a different universe as mine, because that’s what Blizz does. I’m mystified by your seemingly religious veneration of whatever passes for the canon right now. Why should I waste my life trying to build on this pile of wet sand?
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The SC2 engine is already serviceable. I don’t have the tens of millions of dollars necessary to develop my own RTS engine to my specifications. I have no expertise in the subject so I wouldn’t know where to start. Unless you have a bazillion dollars lying around to pay for it, do you?
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I don’t see you telling mappers who don’t care about canon to leave and find another game. Plenty of custom campaigns wouldn’t exist if every mapper was forced to be slavishly loyal to canon. Canon is constantly subject to retcons by Blizz, so loyalist campaigns would be quickly invalidated anyway.
Starcraft, from the start, has been about the Terrans’ struggles to survive against the alien menace while simultaneously dealing with internal power struggles, the Protoss’ struggle to shed their ancient rigid traditions and embrace change, and the Zerg’s struggle to attain the impossible, ever-shifting goal of perfection. It is characterized by short but bloody wars which leave entire sovereign nations destroyed, and leaves the survivors struggling to rebuild in the wake of it.
The story you propose is about a cold war between three evenly-matched powers, characterized by a decades-long conflict between war-weary leaders. It’s quite a different story, in terms of plot, worldbuilding, storyline, and tone.
It’s not just about the characters (Although that is also an important element of a story), but if you want to rewrite almost everything about Starcraft’s storyline, why not write your own stories or your own fanfiction, instead of complaining that Starcraft’s story doesn’t conform to your highly specific, completely different preferences?
Why does it mystify you that I like something you don’t like? Different people have different tastes. And as someone who’s seen what a truly awful story looks like (Just take a look at the confusing, poorly-structured, poorly-paced mess that is Kingdom Hearts 3, or the mindless setpiece-driven nonsense that is Call of Duty or God of War 3), I really can’t call Starcraft’s story terrible.
If you want to make your own fanfiction, knock yourself out.
But if you’re asking the creators to completely change the story based on the subjective tastes of a single critic, I really think you’d be better off either writing your own story, or moving on to something better aligned with your personal tastes.
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Just start writing your own stuff. Free yourself from the shackles of someone else’s writing.
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Thank you for explaining. That is very helpful.
Your point about sovereign nations being destroyed only applies to SC1, in which the Confederacy, Overmind, and Conclave governments were destroyed.
In BW, the terrans and protoss should have been all destroyed and the zerg taken over by the end, but SC2 ignored this completely. The UED fleet was apparently lost without consequence to Earth’s extensive reserves.
In SC2, the Dominion, Overqueen, and Daelaam governments have plot armor. At least the institutions of not specific heads of state.
In any case, your overall point is moot because these wars don’t actually have any real consequences. Blizzard simply doesn’t care for logistics. You are projecting your personal POV onto Starcraft, when your POV is not actually representative of Starcraft. Therefore, I see no reason to privilege your POV over another.
I haven’t set anything in stone, and not this either. I’m open to debate. My current proposal doesn’t make any assumptions but just collects various ideas I thought would be cool. It might not seem like it, but I’m constantly struggling to find a happy medium.
For example, your suggestion above of the Starcraft themes is a possible option. It isn’t canon, but I could discuss it for rewrites.
Again, I’m not doing that or at least not the way you seem to think. Read my proposal on google docs if you want an informed opinion. It’s too long to post here,
Again, I tried that numerous times in the past and every single time I failed horribly. Even though my amateur fanfiction might well be better than Blizzard’s low bar, nobody is ever interested. Not even my original fiction elicits any interest. I’ve tried many times, so telling me to try and fail again isn’t going to make a difference.
SC1 is the best story in the series, but it’s still amateur at best. It’s not horrible, but it’s not good either. The best written subplot is Mengsk’s arc in episode 1, but it still relies on contrivances (flawless psi-emitter, overpowered zerg, kerry snowflake).
The only reason why more people aren’t aware of its low quality is because nobody in the world has yet decided to critically analyze the trilogy with the same amount of effort reserved for real literature. I’m the first person in history to call out the contrivances, only to be told that they aren’t contrivances at all.
I did years ago. I can’t muster motivation anymore due to disgust with the franchise and fandom. Also, I like writing to entertain others, so without any interested audience I don’t feel the effort is warranted. I asked here specifically to find other interested fans, only to find none.
I would never ask Blizzard to retrieve office mail because I fear they would decapitate themselves by papercut. Also, what are you smoking that makes you think I would ask something as stupid as that in a million years?
I see BW fans asking for SC2 to be rewritten to comply with their fantasies, but I’m smarter than that. Most people should be.
I just told you several times that I tried and failed on numerous occasions. The whole reason I’m soliciting this wretched hive of scum and villainy is to find like-minded rogues who want to join me in pillaging our measly black guts out.
Also, I want specifically to map. SC2 is the only engine that does what I want. It already has the races and skins and stuff I actually like.
Did you listen to any word I wrote? I tried that numerous times and it never worked. Also, I want to map. SC2 is the only engine that does what I want.
I’m soliciting here because it’s the only place where anybody responds. Currently I feel like I’m talking to brick walls, but that’s still more progress than anywhere else I tried.
EDIT:
This is great explanation and I agree with it. Unfortunately Blizzard’s execution is terrible.
Again, Blizzard’s execution is awful. Anyway, this is where you and I disagree. I think this approach is not deliberate on the Blizzard but a rationalization by yourself of their incompetence.
As I said before, I prefer a single conflict that ends with everyone dead. That conflict could last a month, a decade, or whatever since I don’t really care about the exact length. I only care that it’s a single war that ends with one or both sides extinct, because otherwise sequelitis kicks in.
I do! Dwarfs FTW. For the Karaz Ankor!
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Young Composer: “Herr Mozart, I am thinking of writing a symphony. How should I get started?”
Mozart: “A symphony is a very complex musical form and you are still young. Perhaps you should start with something simpler, like a concerto.”
Young Composer: “But Herr Mozart, you were writing symphonies when you were 8 years old.”
Mozart: “Yes, but I never asked anyone how.”
Look, almost everybody here read ToxicDefier’s. I think it was decent. People here read a lot of literature, at least I do. The problem here is not just that we don’t understand your point of view. It’s also that you don’t understand ours.
If you wanted to write some fanfics that is self-contain and completely compatible with the current lore as it stands, we have a thread for that by BartFitz. And it was fun. I’m willing to discuss it with you for days.
However, you don’t think you can understand us. And we can’t understand you. How about you move on to the map editor? StarCraft has built-in tool to create your own game with its engine. Blizzard even supported some Mod, although I’m not sure if that program is still around.
There really is no reason for you to wallow in your misery here. You just torture yourself for nothing.
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What are you talking about? In the final BW cinematic, Kerrigan chooses to give everyone else a long reprieve, for reasons that she doesn’t fully explain. SC2’s explanation was that Kerrigan began to sense Amon’s coming, so she chose to retreat and prepare the Swarm for the upcoming conflict. The main reason she attacks the Dominion 4 years later is to find and retrieve the Keystone. And the Dominion, struggling to recover from their disastrous defeat in the Brood War, was losing until they neutralized Kerrigan. After Kerrigan’s defeat in Wings of Liberty, the Swarm was greatly weakened and devolved into infighting between Kerrigan’s broodmothers. After Mengsk’s defeat in HotS, the crippled Dominion military sat helpless as Amon’s armies descended upon their worlds, and only survived due to the intervention of the Daelaam.
The UED fleet was completely obliterated and never had a chance to report back to Earth; the only thing Earth knows about the UED is that not one of the ships sent to the Koprulu sector returned. So why would they just send another fleet? Military expeditions to an area halfway across the galaxy aren’t cheap. If the expedition didn’t get results the first time, it probably wouldn’t get results the second time.
How do the Terran, Zerg and Protoss governments have plot armor? There’s no one left to threaten them, except for each other, and small splinter factions like Niadra. They’re all tired of fighting, and they’re all rebuilding their thoroughly destroyed homeworlds and repopulating their recently-massacred peoples.
My overall point, that the game’s campaigns offer a semi-realistic take on warfare and military tactics, still stands. The main characters frequently emerge victorious because they fight smart. They make tactical and strategic decisions that make sense from a military perspective.
They make use of nearly every resource and tactic used in modern warfare: Reconnaisance, supply lines, spies, sabotage, artillery, air strikes, anti-air, hit-and-run strikes, ambushes, suppressive fire, long-range comms, encrypted communications, encrypted data storage, radar, stealth systems, stealth detection, mercenaries, scorched-earth tactics, establishing a beachhead, resource/supply gathering, recruiting locals for assistance, working through intermediaries, snipers, assassination, establishing a fortified position, laying siege to a fortified position, evacuating civilians from a war zone, and nuclear/biological/chemical weapons.
Many aspects of military strategy are lost upon other space operas like Star Wars, and even some military movies fail to do basic research on military tactics. Which is one major reason I like the campaigns. They aren’t filled with tactical and strategic blunders that immediately take me out of the experience.
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TrickyHunter meets Gradius. Gradius would you mind telling him all about the idiot developers and writer?
I believe there are other older posters who complain about the story, but they’re long gone now. Only the Beacon remains, breath us in his aura of positivity. This topic has been discussed since the draw of time.
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It’s a pass. Never got the hang of his movies, I’m prudish.
Before I even got the game I figured I’d be playing the Dwarves mostly. In previous TW titles I usually built an army of heavy infantry supported by a large contingent of missiles and only had a small portion of light cavalry to harass my enemies. I like to use my heavy infantry aggressively.
It didn’t happen. Dwarves were too rigid in the campaign to me and I ended up playing mostly the Vampire Counts (in game 2 it’s either them or the Vampire Coast). In multi I usually play the underdog races.