With Tychus’ outlaw Vega, the mind control strips away any attack or armor bonuses. Is this intended?
I didn’t check other commanders.
It does with all other commanders, and I assume it’s intended.
They technically don’t get stripped of upgrades, but rather apply yours. So mind controlling Protoss enemies with vorazun darchon would use vorazun’s weapon/armor/shields upgrades
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Yeah I believe this remains one of the more complained topics regarding MC. The advantage Vega has is her gear buffing the units, as oppose to Vorazun to any non-Protoss units.
It really is unfortunate.
Does it also apply with mechanical units from Energizer’s Reclamation control as well?
I believe so, tho someone can correct me if not.
I thought that was fair why did people complain about it?
Well, I mean fair is kind of loose.
Vega is a Terran commander and can mind control any unit and make them stronger than original version. Meanwhile, the iconic Dark Archon’s signature where Mind Control originated from makes crappy versions. (There was also a period where it worked very well but MC got nerf’d and didn’t even apply to Ultralisks and such).
It’s not exactly fair but that’s the sentiment of the complaint. Moreover, from a gameplay perspective. Vega’s domination doesn’t gimp Tychus’s gameplay, as the bulk of the power remains. Meanwhile, if you went for the high cost (another issue) Dark Archon, the overall DPS is reduced by a lot. Exception to both reclaim and MC when Protoss is your enemy.
An argument was and can still be made that both Energizer’s reclaim and Dark Archcon’s MC are functionally meant to be like Vega’s dominance. In that it is suppose to decoratively remove a few critical target.
Yet, we see this is getting to a level where players aren’t generally comfortable doing. At least for the average player.
I mean, when the commander with dark archon mind control, with the capability of deleting a unit from the game and have it work for you, is the same commander that has void rays, a favored unit to mass for stupid DPS, yeah, you’re not going to see MC play very often. Oh, and lolfaceroll oracle for a change of pace, and massing DTs. Literally the worst commander to put MC on, with a noob/lazy person composition like that. It’d be like if they gave Han & Horner’s ravens mines and autoturrets that require energy management, when the average player just masses reapers anyway.
This just isn’t true though.
While Dark Archon isn’t exactly a hard composition to play. The resource (exuberant cost) and energy management aspect is undoubtedly harder than Vorazun’s any other composition (sub perhaps mass Oracle). Most of these are just straight-forward make units and attack. Managing Dark Archons is, in fact, harder than managing mass Oracles as they are so so so much cheaper.
Thematically, Dark Archons should absolutely be with Vorazun and the Nerazim (again, someone with better lore knowledge can correct me here).
Also, just because a commander has a strong build, it isn’t a valid reason to exclude them from another. Otherwise, every commander woudl have just 1 build… that’s literally the bad-old days that everyone didn’t like. And it is literally the reason why there has been patches after patches to balanced and boost “what-was-niche” builds.
From a unit perspective, Dark Archons are by far, and I mean far, weaker than regular Archon. Yet again, comparing unit to unit is also not an appropriate way to justify balance. Otherwise all units would have an exact cost-power ratio, making all units basically the same unit.
And lastly, the design for Vorazun has been set in stone for ages. Taking Dark Archons away or entirely removing MC would further exacerbate the problem. So the only way to “fix it” is to adjust what is appropriate between Vega’s Domination, Energizer’s Reclamation, and Dark Archon’s Mind Control.
I couldn’t care less about thematic accuracy. Tychus is a dead guy brought back to life in the la la land that is SC2 co-op, as is Mengsk. Thematically, they don’t exist.
Besides, nobody said they need to be removed. Just that void rays and DTs are wildly popular, iconic faceroll units, so you’re very unlikely to see units that require more thoughtful gameplay, just like most H&H players mass reapers because they do everything. So yes, it’s absolutely about laziness and people getting stuck doing one very effective build instead of branching out because it works. This is true from what I see and hear about versus too. People get stuck in a “mode” and then their brain stops working when it stops working, unless they’re actually versatile players instead of following a formula. Vorazun has some pretty effective modes that are efficient and easy.
My friend used a dark archon build with great success. It may not be optimal DPS, but that’s a silly metric to use. They’re a change of pace. Every commander’s build isn’t 1:1 optimal with another. If you want an MC unit to be 100% as viable in cost-to-effectiveness as any other, then why are you even bringing up concerns about builds/units becoming too samey? It sounds like you’re making a case for and against it at the same time.
Vega is one unit out of a very limited number you’re allowed on a timer, who requires thousands of minerals to max out her kit on top of the thousands you have to decide between for other outlaws. If you or anyone thinks a dark archon’s (a unit you can make many of to spam mind control) abilities should be more in line with that, then that’s just dumb.
To me, Dark Archon can be spam and can mind control more units than Vega can. Your minded control army are also permanent while Vega’s slaves are not.
Basically it’s a situation of quantity vs quality and i saw it fair that Vega’s slave who have no access to weapon upgrade get a damage buff to compensate while Vorazun can at least provide weapon + armor and shield upgrade to mind controlled Protoss. At the very least, Mind controlled Carriers and Corsairs actually have more damage than Vega’s buffed slave with damage being 8 vs 7.5
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Huh, what are you guys even talking about?
I’m just providing some information regarding how the community is separate on this issue. Even seen in your responses.
Someone like fiddle who doesn’t care about themes or lore as such justifying the trivialization is the way to go. And cerebrate who asked the initial question on how he thought it’s fair believes the increased MC amount justifies Vega’s domination being fair.
This alone portrays how the opinion is divided. One doesn’t care if it’s good or not at all. One thinks it’s already fair. And me who thinks if we look closer, it isn’t so cut and dry.
But you know, since this is a topic about how MC doesn’t retain the upgrades of affected unit as a game mechanic. It is more relevant to discuss how it affects the game. How we can improve it perhaps. Not a “haha who gives a 
”?
And fiddle, as an aside. There is no need to be so mean about everything just because we had one disagreement before. Grow up.
If we are discussing Vega’s “cost”. She comes at 500/100 and can dominate 2 units for free. A single DA costs something like 125/375 + required buildings and upgrades. So no, it isn’t the same. And by many measure it isn’t “fair” per se, let alone DPS.
Even from a “how many you can control” perspective. Vega’s cooldown far out performs DA’s energy regen. The only saving grace is you can’t get more. So yeah, in a 20min game will DA eventually control more due to macro? Yes. However, if we are discussing in terms of the first 10-15min of a game (where it counts the most), then DA suck by far lol. Not to mention any loss.
But why am I even typing this out? Nothing is going to change anyway.
Almost all of your posts involve you swatting down other people’s and contradicting them in long-winded, abrasive essays, but when someone does the same to you, it’s “being mean2me.” You grow up, buddy. What exactly was mean-spirited? My post was no more “mean” than the majority of yours.
Besides, I already plainly said I don’t like you, for bigger reasons than having a disagreement. Keep piling on the character judgments on a public forum like a juvenile jerk though. That should improve my outlook about you.
For one I’m not calling you names at all. And I’m choosing to discuss topic regarding topic, rather than bringing old squabble.
And you are choosing to continue hating and acting the way you do. For what? A couple of posts you felt offended at. Welcome to the internet.
You’re right, juvenile indeed, so I’m out.
What the hell are you smoking, man? Oh, I said an idea to alter non-hero units to be more in line with a hero unit with a specific purpose is “dumb.” That’s definitely worth stirring the pot for. Notice how you’re the one holding onto it, since you deemed that as justification to make yet another unwarranted character attack with your silly a** projection. Just shut up already if you’re so over it instead of inciting nonsense and derailing threads, and then taking the high road. Get over yourself.
One tradeoff I figured was Vega’s MC-ed units will die eventually, whereas Vorazun’s MC-ed units will not.
Otherwise, it’s sort of like saying how weak Broodlings are after using the Spawn Broodling spell. The fact that the target was destroyed (Sc1, BW, pre-update Stukov), or took 300 damage (post-update to Stukov) are the main benefits. The Broodlings are merely just a bonus.
Well, DTs being popular is to be expected. It’s listed in her lv1 talent, of which most COs tend to use that as part of their “basic tools”. Like using Dehaka without his Consume ability, Raynor without his bio ball, or Karax without his Top Bar lasers. Vorazun’s DT get extra ability upgrades, on top of bonuses for being cloaked.
Solution wise, I would reduce the energy cost of Dark Archon MC. That way they have MC for big units, Confusion for swarms, and both useful. It also focuses on the main difference between MC and Vegas Domination, you can MC more units than you can Dominate.
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We could have enemy army upgrade correspond with player upgrade?
Vorazun and Karax control can get 3 upgrades max
Tychus control could get 5 upgrades max
I like this idea, maybe Argus Crystal upgrade can get energy discount?
I think the problem with this (as I understand it) was that it doesn’t scale properly between races. Like does Air give Mech? How does Shield factor into it all. As such, I believe this is why initially they gave them full upgrades.
Yeah, I believe this was the consensus start, but apparently the team left it where it’s at. Frankly, I am not sure why. Possibly because of the one dimensional, critical mass DA then win. Although, I find that true to be any composition, so I never understood why.
I don’t know how but wouldn’t they figure it out themselves how to scale it? I dunno mate