Ok folks, enjoy your numbers and hatred here.
Has anybody already mentioned how Amon’s SCV can repair Bonus objectives in Mist Opportunities horrifyingly fast?
One SCV can heal the objective 33.33 per sec and keep in mind, more SCVs can join in.
Nothing much to say abut medic, just wanted to focus on that particular pickle.
I think hatred is a strong and unnecessary word. While we’ve had our differences I’ve really appreciated the recent shift to respectful debate.
That… explains a lot, actually.
It was a jest, my teacher.
It was already tested and done with.
Medic heals at 12HP/s per ~2.5 energy/s. While SCV and MULE only able to reach 6HP/s.
The confusion was from incorrect association from wiki/liquipedia numbers, as there are no values given for coop.
I don’t think we should or need to discuss more about this lol.
The interesting point about Medic vs SCV/MULE is that Medic includes a damage reduction portion so the amount that needs to be healed is actually reduced by about 1/3rd, which on top of the doubled healing rate, is a compelling argument in favour of medics.
However, Medics require considerable investment both for the Medic itself but also for Barracks/Tech Lab/Stabilisers meaning each medic has to heal at least a whole BC from 4 HP to full to make the investment worthwhile (probably).
But the Double Edge equation isn’t as simple as “if being healed, won’t take damage” because A. The self DPS is probably above 12 when attacking ground units? Buy more importantly, B. A single Mastery point in “secondary unit healing” will provide minuscule healing but still 25% Damage reduction which will give a lot of sustain to an attacking unit.
Yamato is also a thing and it’s especially important when fighting air waves (and Thors) to be able to spray the big guns preferably while being healed.
Overthinking it too much man.
If you don’t die as a result of the added self-damage from DE, then you’ll always heal back up to your original HP. That’s how it works… it doesn’t matter if you’re doing “probably above 12DPS” lol. The amount only dictates how fast you’d die from it (or how long u can sustain that kind of damage). (And the healing part thereafter is just always at the 8HP/s, so longer to heal back up, sure. Healing back nonetheless.)
In practice, the exact amount makes 0 difference. Just that you’re taking “extra damage”. Between the enemy damage and DE, as long as you live then all your DE is healed. So you should always use Medic to help that sustain, period.
This is the story now but a minute ago this was the story:
Now, the discussion has evolved and we’ve done a bit of a deep dive into the theory and its been backed up by a few practical tests (mostly by you Fear, credit where credit is due!).
I’d like to go and do a test or two on how fast BCs actually kill themselves with and without healing and/or damage reduction from Medics and it’d be fun to try out some BC/landed Viking/Firebat/Medic combo against some appropriate composition/mutation/map combination (suggestions welcome for something B+1-4 equivalent).
The answer is probably something like “it depends” with all of the above being relevant. On shorter maps probably just stick with SCVs, 18-20+ minutes is probably where Medics become more useful. Most environmental stuff probably lends to healing up with SCVs inbetween fights but otherwise probably can have a good time with Medics if the enemy doesn’t target them down.
"The time needed to repair a unit is dependent on its build time. A unit which takes 60 seconds to create will also take 60 seconds to repair with a single SCV. "
And it also seems that build time is taken from ladder balance, not coop. So SCV repairs Vikings at ~4.5 hp/sec, Banshees at ~3.3 hp/sec, Battlecruisers at ~8.6 hp/sec.
No, the story was that I used Liquipedia’s repair rates (as it was the only one available). Then I did in-game testing and found the opposite.
Instead of reading carefully on the progression of the posts. You kept on nitpicking on the part before the testing. Even now…
You are welcome to test it but I’ve told you it’s a pointless exercise, as I’ve done that and told you the results. By all means though…
- BC does between 30 to 68 DPS, depending on mastery, mastery buff, etc. so it dies to DE within 10-20sec respectively.
- Medic greatly increase that time. Sure, find the exact number, but it’s pointless.
- For every +1 armor that time will change.
- For every x armor/HP of different unit, this time will change.
Point? Simple, use a medic if you want better sustain against DE.
I tested this in-game in the other topic. To my surprise, the SCV took 90sec to repair a BC of 0 upgrade from 4HP to full 550HP (as P3, costing 147/42 or 25%).
I know what the sources say, but it just ain’t so lol. Regardless, all it meant is Medics are actually better at “healing”. One can make an argument about more MULEs but at the moment seems people are endlessly using one discussion point with another (Double Edge) and vice versa.
Yeah, but that’s 90 coop seconds. In real seconds it’s 64, I also tested it.
Okay… what is your point?
The medic took 43 “coop seconds”, I guess that’s 31sec of real time… uh so? Medic was still a faster healer. Does this change the scope of what is discussed?
Or did your test show medic heal slower? Cuz then I think we need some further investigation.
I just said SCVs repair different units at different speed.
Yes, we know. Thanks… it repairs at the production rate for x1 worker. And inversely proportional with additional workers.
However, it is clear that in BC’s particular case, the “production time” was pulled/placed as the 90sec coop time value (rather than the 45sec coop time for Raynor).
And that is what causes SCV to be essentially worse than Medic, when they shouldn’t be. I’ve not checked other units for discrepancies (but this whole topic was mostly focused on BCs specifically, in case you were confused).
Also, I would even venture a guess that any of Raynor’s units are affected the same. For example:
- Viking at 125HP 0 upgrade takes 19sec as Raynor but will likely take 30sec to repair by SCV (pulling the wrong value again).
- This makes them 125 / 30 = ~4.2HP/s repair rate, which is still well below the 12HP/s of medics.
- SCV would however heal a structure like Swann’s factory far faster… but then again that’s neither here or there since Medics aren’t even eligible lol.
I guess medics may be better early game, but late game SCV/Mules are superior thanks to the ability to stack repairs.
Especially, Raynor P3 building a lot of Command Centers should rain mules, and if a Swann P2 is in the game, in-between spamming turrets a little army of SCV could go visit the battlecruisers or whatever is nearby.
See a lot of Raynors over building OCs instead of army or instead of actually using that army to do stuff.
The rule of thumb I’ve figured out that is that 4 OC is enough for any regular army and only if wanting to rain Marines or Spider Mines or other mineral dump is there a need to go higher.
It could vary a bit player to player and situation to situation but generally never have a reason to go over 6.
Actually, I’d wager a guess that the SCV is repairing at the same rate as in ladder, so time to heal 0 to full = production time. What’s missing in the picture is Raynor’s abilities.
Raynor’s lvl 1 ability says he trains combat units 50% faster. The game reports that on the production tab and cards as half production time, but it seems internally it’s more like the structures are working at double speed.
So, a BC reports 43 second build time, but is actually 86. That’s why the SCV is taking twice as long as assumed based on data online.
Of course though, a medic only gets a little under a BC and a half on a full charge (depending on armour upgrades, can be less). So a medic with energy is just better entirely it seems, but a medic relying on the recharge rate would be far slower than an SCV.
Exactly right. Essentially a bug that is unnoticed or perhaps uncared for by most people lol. Though, nonetheless one considering the topic. Perhaps our current saviour could do something about it in the near future.
To be fair, it’s a meaningless distinction outside of repair rates. And, until prestige, BC was just a meme build, so I doubt anyone really paid any attention to that.