Masteries that determine your build

This is personal opinion, but I thoroughly dislike masteries that trap you into a build before the game has even started (ex. Raynor Mech attack Speed vs Medic Heal).

Regardless of ‘balance’ or whether one mastery is stronger than the other per point, I think masteries are better when they improve a certain aspect of the gameplay, but they don’t force you into that type of gameplay only. Some examples of good masteries, IMO:

Raynor - Hyperion vs Banshees, even though Banshees are a little stronger, you’d always use both.
Kerrigan - all her masteries, as they either make Kerrigan stronger, or her army, and you’d always use both in a regular game.
Artanis - Shield Overcharge vs Guardian Shell, even though Shell is a little stronger, you’d always use both.
Nova - all her masteries, as they either make Nova stronger, or her army, and you’d always use both in a regular game.

However, there are a lot of problematic masteries, here’s how I’d fix the ‘worst’ offenders:

Raynor:

  • Medic heal vs Mech attack speed >>>>> Unit HP vs. Unit attack speed.

REASONING: Unit HP accomplishes the same thing as medic heal, without having to actually use medics. Unit attack speed accomplishes the same thing as mech attack speed, but it can also be used for bio.

Artanis:

  • Energy and CD regeneration vs Warp in stim >>>>> Energy, CD and HP regeneration vs Warp in stim
    REASONING: Adding HP makes the mastery affect dragoons, and retains the flavor of durable army vs expendable army. Stim is still very powerful because of it’s synergy with Guardian Shell, 3 charges of warps, and faster Warp ins.

Swann:

  • Immortality protocol buff vs Structure HP >>>>> Unit and Structure build time vs Unit and Structure HP
    REASONING: Unit and structure build time is the same as immortality protocol, but for all units, not just tanks and HERCS that were killed. this retains the flavor of either having a more durable army/static, or a stronger comeback mechanic.

Zagara:

  • Baneling dmg vs Zergling evasion >>>>> Unit dmg vs Unit evasion
    REASONING: Both options would allow Aberrations and Corruptors to be viable; and buff Zagara’s air, which is her main weakness. Zerglings and Banes would still be stronger due to her synergies, but they wouldn’t completely overshadow everything else.

Karax:

  • Unit HP vs Structure HP >>>>> Unit and Structure HP vs Unit and Structure energy, CD and HP regeneration
    REASONING: Both tankiness in different ways, like the original idea, but they don’t lock you into army vs cannon build.

Alarak:

  • Alarak attack dmg vs Unit attack speed >>>>> Alarak attack and ability dmg vs Unit attack speed, attack dmg and ability dmg.
    REASONING: Following Nova’s and Kerrigan’s design, option 1 focuses on hero, while option 2 now affects ALL units. Alarak is currently one of the weaker commanders, so a buff to his output wouldn’t be a bad thing. Also, I think unit output feels unique when compared to unit cost (Kerrigan) or unit regen (Nova), to help him stand out more.

Stukov:

  • Infested infantry duration vs Mech attack speed >>>>> Unit duration and HP vs Unit attack speed and energy regeneration.
    REASONING: simple, both options affect his whole army in different, yet meaningful ways. Added energy regen to option 2, so Queens can benefit from it as well.

Mengsk:

  • Trooper support vs Royal Guard support >>>>> All support generation vs Starting imperial mandate
  • Terrible dmg vs Royal Guard cost >>>>> Terrible dmg vs Unit attack speed
  • Starting imperial mandate vs Royal Guard exp >>>>> Unit cost vs Unit HP regeneration

OVERALL REASONING: Mengsk masteries currently buff either his Royal Guards or everything else he does. Since Royal Guards are weaker and you don’t really need them, you are often better off not picking any of their masteries.

Option 1 REASONING: You are choosing between upfront mandate, or long-term mandate. Up-front mandate is an economy buff for people who like strong early game. Long term mandate is weak early game, but snowballs into late game. It’s the same general concept, without limiting your unit comp.

Option 2 REASONING: Both affect output in a different, yet meaningful way. Maintains original concept, but doesn’t limit the effect to only one type of unit.

Option 3 REASONING: Royal guard cost was moved here, but now it affects troopers as well. The Royal guard exp is not something taken often; so I replaced it with rengen, that helps all builds. You are choosing between reaching max supply faster, or easier recuperation from fights.

With these changes, both your Royal Guards AND Troopers would always benefit. So, you’d be free to use whatever unit comp / ratios you find most effective for each mission.


Obviously, there are masteries that are not balanced in terms of numbers, but that’s easier to change. The core design of some the ones I mention here should change first.

The idea is that no matter what masteries you pick, they’d be useful in any build for that commander. That way you are able to play reactively to the enemy comp, instead of brute forcing through X or Y superior unit comp due to masteries.

Bring back the S in RTS.

3 Likes

Artanis doesn’t need any HP regeneration. We have plenty of options to pair up with for that, and it would probably make Artanis really dumb with Guardian Shell.

This change would be very bad. Karax only has two Spellcasters in his arsenal, and has access to Repair Beam. Unit and Structure HP would be the choice all day, every day.

I would rather have Unit Attack Damage + Speed over Ability Damage for them. Ascendants are fine where they are, and the attack speed would benefit Wrathwalkers more.

This would be a HUGE nerf to Mengsk. Like, holy hell this is such a nerf. You either completely butcher your mandate generation over the course of the game, or you don’t get any tools to quickly build up your economy. A definite no.

Once again, you don’t need unit regeneration. Troopers can switch to Labourers between waves to repair your mech, and you have access to Intercessors. If you need an HP regen mastery, you seriously need to learn how to play Mengsk properly.

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I get where you’re coming from, but I think that people look at the mechanic differently. To me, having masteries that promote certain styles of play with commanders mean they empower people who like to play that way. If you have a good balance of masteries, then players should be able to find mastery choices that synergize with their playstyle.

Additionally, most of the examples you provide are built that way specifically to provide a choice; do you want to make your units more resilient (good for defensive players and/or players who aren’t as good at micro) or do you want them to deal more damage (good for aggressive players and/or players with better micro skills).

It sounds to me like you just want to have it all, which isn’t really the point of the system.

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What I don’t like is that some few commanders have a one-sided mastery 3, Raynor is fine, mech attack speed doesn’t really force you to stop doing bio comp. Masteries being used to fit a style you play with the commander is just fine.

However Karax chrono vs SoA energy changes his early-game drastically, same with Mengsk and Stetmann, getting chrono or extra exp instead of getting fast-expo is not a style of play, it’s getting a niche strategy that is not effective as the standard build, assuming you’re playing regular Brutal that is, there are specific builds that works wonders on a specific map.

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I understand your sentiment, but Raynor’s masteries were explicitly designed to have you choose between mech and bio, so the devs aren’t likely to go back on their intent.

karaxs repair beam is actually good. so i understand why you have to get it at such a high level

2 Likes

In the end, it’s mostly moot though. You can use one side or the other, even if it’s not as efficient. I’m more concerned with the ones that are exclusives. Like Stukov getting Infested Volitale from ICC (although you do also get them from tanks). Or Raynor’s Medics healing 2 at a time (although you could always compensate with more medics).

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Actually, that’s more the point. I want it to be an actual choice, not feel tied to the masteries with the better build. Like, Raynor has better BIO than Mech, so medic heal is better; but, if you just increased ALL his units’ HP vs ALL his unit’s attack speed, then you’d be choosing between tanky or bursty regardless of unit comp. You could have tanky or bursty BIO, or tanky or bursty mech.

You’d be able to pick with whatever fits your playstyle more, without being tied to a build before the game has even started.

you are not thinking of most of those rebuttals logically.

I’d be useful, but you’d lose the stim. That makes it a real choice. Right now there’s no reason to pick Energy regeneration mastery, even if you go Templars.

You’d get a REAL choice. You either get tankiness, or you get recovery. You can’t say the HP would always be the best choice because it would depend on the numbers. +10 max HP is bad if you compare it to 5000 HP/sec regeneration; it depends on the numbers. Also, the energy regen affecting his shield generators actually adds tankiness too.

I don’t think it should be a choice between tankiness and dps to maintain the philosophy of Karrax.

The point is that you always pick Alarak dmg when going Ascendants, and unit attack speed when you don’t go ascendants. With these masteries, either one would work for ascendants; just like Nova’s and Kerrigan’s masteries work regardless of the unit comp they go for in game.

No. It’s a choice between getting the mandate early, or getting more late game. It’s delayed gratification. Mensk has the worst mastery design. There’s absolutely no reason to pick the Royal guard improvements because THEY ONLY AFFECT ROYAL GUARDS. In fact, Mengsk actually feels bad if you pick the extra exp on Royal Guards, or the extra support generation from Royal guards. I want it to be a real choice.

You don’t “need” anything. That’s why they are masteries. You don’t “need” starting mandate, you can just generate it, but it sure feels nice to have it.
Again, it depends on the numbers. -5 mineral cost has nothing on +1000 hp/s regen. That’s what balancing is for.

LOL?

I think you just have a personal bias here, so you are attacking me instead of thinking logically. Your counter arguments are irrational.

yeah, but those were not his original masteries. For the first two years of Co-Op, Raynor could only ever use bio, and mech was supposed to be sprinkled in.

Raynor’s mech has gone through a lot of buffs to make it viable. And then they added that mech mastery to solidify it as a viable choice. So, they certainly went back on their intent.

I loved those changes to Raynor, but it still left him feeling a little incomplete. His mech is essentially weak UNLESS you pick that mastery. I’d like that to change.

I agree, but at least both are possible choices (in Karax’s case) that could be used regardless of your build. The chrono boost masteries are a little underpowered in general, but that’s a matter of numbers more than a matter of design.

This mastery is for a choice whether the commander should go for Bio or Mech.
I’m saying this Just in case you can say Medic is the better choice because they can heal Bio and Mech altogether but Mech Raynor needs Mules for repair not Medics.
Let the mastery be.

While having Artanis’s units regenerating health is huge boon, but that is what your allies are for (not always). Besides Artanis won’t run much of resources because his units are very durable.
Let the mastery be.

Like Raynor, this mastery gives you an alternative between increased endurance of Tank and Odin, and Tough Structures. It’s kind of weird that you divided Build time and HP instead of units and structures but Swann’s unit production (Tech Lab) and HP (Talent) are good enough as they are.
Let the mastery be.

Same with above Let the mastery be.
But I do have a problem with Zagara Attack vs Zagara Ability. Just how effective is with attack compared to Zagara’s Ability. Sure it may have synergy with Medusa Blades (Targets 4 units, 3 spines cause 50% of primary attack) but it is only useful with air units and there is no way you can predict that prior to the mission.
I rather have Zagara’s Attack be replaced with “Abherration and Corruptor Attack and HP increase by 30%” I mean, I know the Set 1 is preserved for Zagara only but Zagara’s Attack is too insignificant.

Also, Zagara’s Infested Drop stays 10 drop pods even when Darken Sky talent is unlocked.
Let the mastery be, but please put Zagara’s Attack into consideration

Same with Swann’s reason. Karax needs Discount mastery, either replace it with the Unit HP like before or replace it with Chrono Overload Solarite Charge mastery (I find that mastery very useless)

While I’m very tempted to agree with Alarak attack and ability dmg, but I have to say no (Hopefully the developers can increase Telekinesis and Lightning Surge to do that). Unit attack speed is fine but I find it puzzling why it is only 15% while other Commanders (Stukov and Raynor) are 30%.
Let the mastery be.

Most of the suggestions in your proposal can not fix the real problem of said commander and some- the imbalance from their mastery. Also you missed Stet, as he also has a somehow worst mastery among others.

What I only wish to post though, is ask people how should a mastery be designed… should they allow more spit or just strictly 30/30.

People have different opinions. I for one think warp-in boost from Artanis as useless because I have a death ball playstyle and don’t really lose units, but getting 45% cooldown decrease is a huge buff for zealots, immortals and reavers (templars don’t really benefit from this as they are usually deployed like calldown, a pair that start with max energy thanks to the amulet upgrade, and immediately turn to archons once you spent up their energy). It’s the same thing: you treat your army expendable, then the warp speed is better, if you have the micro and knowledge to keep units alive for the whole mission, then the cooldown decrease is way better.

You don’t need masteries for regular missions, their effects are mostly a boost for beating different mutations so build-bond nature of the masteries are OK in my book.

That’s the whole point. The mastery makes you chose your build BEFORE the game has started. That’s why I think it’s bad.

Pretty much the same thing for all of them. That’s like, the premise of the thread and its title.

Which ones you think are bad and why?

A little confusing, but if you are asking me, I think the answer is obviously allow for split. That’s the whole purpose of individual points.

Upgrade Resource Cost.

Do I really have to explain this I wonder.

Yea it should be Split

I miss the time where I could do a split from Raynor mech attack speed and Medic mastery.

Only because it’s underpowered, but not because it’s bad in design. I considered it while writing this, but realized that mastery could easily be fixed with just higher percentages.

It doesn’t really force you into any build. You will use Garry, and you will use units (with upgrades) regardless of your build. Improving Garry is currently better, but that’s because Super Garry’s Stetzone solves a lot of Stetmann’s issues. However, having free upgrades early in the game could also solve other issues.

It’s really not that bad when you think about it. Change it from 60% to 90% (or even 95%) and it’s sudenly an amazing mastery.

But you can do that right now. It’s not going to be efficient; but it’s possible.

Maybe you mean the time when his mastery was Medics reduce dmg taken by healed target vs Hedic heals a secondary target. But again, that mastery was changed because it assumed you’d use medics in every game. The new Mech attack speed just didn’t solve the issue though, it just made it even more apparent.

That’s the problem.

characters