Make mutas great again

I don’t think comparing to BW makes much sense. Mutalisks were good in WOL and HOTS. They’re trash in LOTV because of Zerg’s weaker economy. They need to be buffed to be part of the meta again.

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I think mutas are so over buffed in sc2, that they ended up causing extremely hard counters in return. Basically like how the reaper can’t be made useful without it being OP.

As for people crying about Phoenix, I’d argue corsairs beat on mutas much harder and that didn’t erase them from BW.

Mutalisks are one of the least buffed units in the game. The only changes they’ve had were regen and speed back in HOTS. They were never OP, they’ve just become obsolete with the changes to larva in LOTV.

Mutalisks were great because their effectiveness scaled with their skill level. They were amazing in the hands of a skilled player but had little to no use for lower levels.

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I don’t agree at all. Mutas are an assassin unit that offer a lot of lethal power, it can wreck mineral lines in seconds, it can unpower all of your buildings and give instant map control, you can pick sentries and high templars out of position, it can force over reactions, and for the Phoenix to counter it you have to keep microing, it’s a lot of lost macro time.

You definetly don’t want every PvZ to go Muta Just like toss don’t Go Dts every game. Imo the Mutas are balanced the way they are.

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Their speed and considerably ease of use compared to BW(no selection cap) makes them absurdly better.

Add to that the HP reduction stalkers have compared to dragoons and they where a handful in wol. Add their stupid regen ability and the Phoenix had to be buffed so that protoss could have one way of not auto losing to stupid mass muta, which I’m sorry to say, required no skill other than making a spire and avoiding direct fights until critical mass.

The tempest sole reason to exist was to give a mass muta counter at the time…

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Completely untrue. Mutalisks are one of the most skill dependent units in the game, if not, the most. There’s no point in comparing them to their BW counterpart, completely different games. Also, phoenix have been almost untouched since WOL.

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Basically none of the things you listed will ever come to fruition if the protoss plays correctly. You are saying that mutus are viable because Zerg players can pray that the protoss doesn’t know how to position his high Templar correctly? Using that same argument I could say that drones are an excellent fighter and can beat all of protoss protoss has terrible enough positioning.

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Mutas are mostly a one trick pony surprise attack, which can do a lot of economic damage. A spire and 10 or so mutas is well worth it in a ZvP even at high levels. You can always use them to harass, or simply put a protoss on the defensive. Even when the opponent builds good units for straight up fighting mutalisks, archons are slower. It’s probably not smart to go spire if the open stargate first, so won’t have to worry about phoenix for a while.

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I make mutas,i kill probes and pylons, when the slow, garbage DPS army arrives I move to another base and repeat. I lose nothing and regen in a few seconds, repeat.

All in a single control group too lol.

I greatly disagree on your high skill required claim for this unit.

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Someone remembers when the fenix only had one more of range than the mutas how things have changed

That really isn’t the case. Mutas are very expensive. For 10 mutas you need 1200 gas. That’s the equivalent of 48 roaches. In the current meta it is very difficult to survive protoss timing attacks which is why blizzard is doing some of the nerfs that they are. Affording mutas is not possible in any of those scenarios. The only scenario where they are good is where the protoss is behind and doesn’t have enough units to defend as large of a space as their bases occupy or when they can’t afford enough anti air while still being able to afford enough anti ground.

They are so expensive that even if you fly in and kill an entire mineral line of probes it just isn’t enough. Your roach count should be so low that the protoss can just a move and wreck your face.

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Corsairs( Disruption web is rare) like valkyries only had an air to air attack. While the ata was really good, they could end up as dead supplies if you made too many.
Phoenix on the other hand have graviton beam which allows them to harass workers and small ground armies. While also being useful in big fights by being able to pick up tanks, immortals, and other important units.

Edit: Mutalisk also suffer from not being able to morph into anything which makes them a dead end.

In PvZ, corsairs could be used to go after enemy overlords, both to clear away detection for your DTs and just to generally give the enemy a bad time. While it was certainly possible to wildly over-invest in them, you generally weren’t completely without something for your corsairs to be doing.

I can guarantee you that controlling mutalisks requires much more multitasking and speed than marching a deathball across the map. Your entire muta flock can die in 2 seconds to marines, widow mines, thors or archons so they require a huge amount of skill to use effectively and are insanely expensive. If you’re not active with them all game or make a mistake for a split second you can instantly lose.

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It’s always viable if toss doesn’t open Stargate, and even if they do, if they don’t get a lucky scout your mutas will do guaranteed damage.

First of - that’s never going to happen. Protoss has adepts, prisms and oracles flying over every inch of zergs bases so if you are caught off guard by mutas you are playing bad.

Second - the damage isn’t guaranteed even if the protoss doesn’t see mutas until they show up. The mutas show up, the protoss box-selects his workers to another base in 2 hotkeys + 2 clicks before the mutas even make it from the edge of his base to the mineral lines, and his army moves to intercept. 10 seconds later there is a shield battery and cannon in every mineral line and 30 seconds later the protoss is pushing with an unstoppable deathball.

The only way this works is if the protoss plays bad. Mutas don’t do enough guaranteed damage and/or don’t have enough utility in general to justify their incredibly high price tag. Even if you kill an entire mineral line of probes the protoss can still win with a 1a on the other side of the map because mutas are just too darn expensive. For the same gas cost you could have 48 roaches or 14 swarmhosts. It’s a no-brainer.

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mutalisks arent fun to play against, just another harrass unit. what happened to macro and army positioning of broodwar?

Warp prisms, medivac drops, banshees etc aren’t fun to play against because they’re effective harass. Zerg barely has any of that right now and could use some.

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Agreed. Back in HotS I was always trying to make one giant muta switch and in the worst case just go for a base trade. But nowadays that’s basically impossible. (and that is actually good, cos I found it stupid back then)

Maybe that’s why they don’t need to be buffed but instead their counters should be changed a bit. Buffing them is risky, even in zvz. Mass muta is not fun to play against. I dunno about phoenix exactly, cos I don’t know what a change to them would mean in PvT. But surely there must be something that can be tweaked, right? Right now they have huge range advantage, they can be shielded-up by SB, they can shoot while moving and the have bonus light dmg. Ain’t that a bit too much? Overall, they can harass ground like there is no tomorrow and they come out very early. (even tho SG openings are not that common nowadays)

However, I see no f***ing reason why thors should auto-aim air by default. They were buffed to what, 11.5 range? To deal with BL… Ok. But then don’t make them autoaim air. Let the player actually click those BL / capital ships, whatever. They are big enough, you cannot miss them. It is just currently so easy to lose 20+ mutas. You don’t watch them for 2 seconds? Oh, 2 WM’s, 1 thor, babaaaaaay! Yes, I guess this doesn’t happen to M/GM that often, but come on…

I always keep hearing how BC’s and other early game harass (yeah, you read it here first :)) BC - early game) must pay for itself, otherwise it is not worth doing. Logical. So we have a harass unit that’s complete sh!t and cannot accomplish absolutely anything. I would trade the nydus anytime for better harassment options for Z.

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On the list of units that should never ever get buffed, I would put Mutas at the top of the list. Rather play against Nydus Swarm host all day than that cancer.

If they got rid of the insane regen and made damaging them actually matter I could see buffing thier combat effectiveness, but as long as they instantly heal any non lethal damage it’s a hard no from me.

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