Another way to look at the same information is that HM is carried by reapers - #Terran.
Charge is part of the game. It shouldn’t get nerfed.
Oh wait . . .
How? We are talking about 1 reaper lol not mass reaper thats long gone
That’s the purest example of a Protoss that shouldn’t be there but #design. What you are talking is most who go regular builds and I mean those like printf.
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I should just point out that spider mines literally could not target probes in the first place, so this is hardly a meaningful claim.
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Yeah. It is meaningful. People lost probes to vulture mines, all of the time. Difference being, it actually took thought/planning + your opponent making an error.
People, to this day, think vultures are the best unit in BW. I’m not one of them, but everyone else is. If you don’t make mistakes, vultures aren’t “world beaters.”
The point is, in BW, if you lost your probes or something bad happened it was ON YOU, regardless of whether you opponent did something smart or not. In SC 2, way too often your losses are simply due to design.
I can’t tell the difference between playing a 4.5k Terran and a 5.5k Terran. I went 36 games without losing a single game to someone who didn’t play Terran. I lost to a 4.5k Terran. Zero exaggeration. My last opponent was a 4.7k Terran and I thought for sure he was really high MMR.
Everything they make is a good unit. They have no bad units. All of their harass is designed to do damage, regardless of what their opponent does. You can’t even leave your side of the map, due to too much risk involved.
People lost probes to Vultures.
In order to lose Probes to Spider Mines, you have to be an idiot. It requires the player to walk his/her probes close to spider mine that he/she saw get placed while moving combat units into the probe lines to trigger the mine.
I wouldn’t even expect bronze league players to make that kind of mistake.
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So it was literally an accident, every single time. Because you can be sure that your opponent wasn’t sacking those probes deliberately.
So why is that your standard for how effective widow mine drops should be? Its one thing to say that they are too effective given that they do all of their damage up front for cheap, but that’s just straight unreasonable. Vultures also had an attack, which was exceptionally good at killing workers. Why aren’t you including that into your comparison?
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Has no one ever played broodwar? My god. You guys should really not talk about it, if not. I played both sides of the matchup at a high level. I’ve killed a million probes with vultures, and I’ve deflected vultures with ease.
When you go to vulture drop, as you said… vultures have a normal attack, so they can kill workers. Thus, they had to send dragoons to attack the vultures. Invariably, dragoons would end up by the mineral line. Then, that’s when you plant mines. If they didn’t kill the mine or move their dragoons in time, then, naturally, they would also lose their workers.
Happened all the time. Not a single time could you blame imbalance. With any awareness, it was easily avoidable. However, it was really easy to punish players who weren’t “on the ball.”
That’s what good design looks like. Good design isn’t, herp derp, I just researched a 75/75 upgrade, so now I get to kill all of your probes at will. Haha. It’s moronic.
There have been too many free win mechanics in this game and not enough ownership mechanics. Like when the nydus was invincible and they would just teleport all of their units ontop of yours at the start of the game. Only an idiot would take ownership of losing that.
So rather than just shooting the workers, youre running the vultures into the mineral lines, planting mines, running back out, and then trying to bait dragoons to stand in the mineral lines that the protoss just watched you mine?
And you somehow think that any probe deaths there ARENT because your opponent just turned off their brain for a minute?
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Are you stupid or something man? Ofc you try to kill the probes with vultures, but anytime the opportunity presents itself, you’d be a freaking monkey if you don’t try to plant mines next to the dragoon. If you do it right, you can create a “no man zone” allowing your vultures to simply retreat behind the mineral line and shut the mining down.
It’s this simple. 1 game = fair chances for probe killing and defending said probe killing. Other game = get abilities/units that guarantee more kills than your opponent.
Good defense in SC 2 = having your probes not mining for a minute so you didn’t lose any. There is no such thing as good defense in SC 2. You get punished no matter what you do. Mindless harass is always rewarded. No strategy involved.
But that’s not using spider mines to kill probes, that’s using spider mines to zone out dragoons. Any probe kills from the mines are entirely accidental. Youre shooting them with the vultures, and that’s whats killing them.
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Yes, I have, and Vultures with Spider Mines (which had a lower combined cost and different requirements) are not analogous to Widow Mines.
……….
- Surround the vultures with probes so they cannot plant their mines next to the dragoons as the Dragoons help kill the Vultures.
- Pull probes as you bring in the Dragoons.
Honestly, if those were not vs. AI games, I feel sorry for whatever idiot was stupid enough to actually lose probes to Spider Mines that way. A competent player wouldn’t.
In any case StarCraft II has a much stronger/faster economy than Brood War, which is one of the major reasons why harassment has to be so much stronger in order to be effective. Take Hellions for example: They have a slightly slower attack rate than Vultures, but they hit multiple workers with each shot and clear mineral lines much faster as a result…
You still kill probes all the time via a dragoon setting off a mine in the mineral line. We’re not playing Bisu here. Top professionals still lose probes to banelings cause they refuse to watch their minimap. The last thing this game needs to do is guarantee kills. Horrible fundamentals already presents infinite opportunities to earn kills.
I don’t understand the love fest for semantics in a game you clearly didn’t play. The point isn’t changing. It’s not like mines in SC 2 are only allowed to kill workers, like it’s a must they kill every worker.
Great. Now we got a gold leaguer talking about what competent players would do. Lmao.
Terran players can beat protoss players with a single Reaper. That sounds a lot like reapers are too strong. Imagine if a protoss could make a single zealot and kill a terran player. Would you be calling that player a God, and asking how the Terran player could possibly have gotten to 6.2k MMR without knowing how to defend a single zealot? Nope, you’d be calling protoss overpowered and easy.
Terranic said it better than I could, but your comparisons are fundamentally misplaced here. This isn’t semantics, this is just you straight up comparing apples to oranges and wondering why they don’t taste the same.
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It’s more like saying hey… this fruit is way better than the other one. In fact, the other one is as rotten to the core as it could be. So, how about going with the fruit that isn’t horrible or at least getting rid of the rotten one? Is that asking for too much?
Like I said, everyone and their mom thinks the vulture is the best unit in the game and OP at that, yet I have never had any qualms or issues with facing the vulture. It’s a non issue. It’s not imbalanced. It doesn’t scare me. I’d be embarrassed to lose anything of significance to vultures, just how I would be ashamed to lose workers to baneling run bys.
There you go. Baneling harass = fair and is far more in line with a BW tactic. Widow mine drops, especially those with the upgrade = you’re going to take damage whether you have perfect awareness and actions, no matter what.
It’s not an interactive game or a game of skill when it only matters what one side of the equation does. That’s called imbalance/bad design. Period.
Yes when A stalker or few come to harass your natural or bunker, sometimes 1-2 stalkers did that. The cyclone last year was the one that would stop that because it was quite easy to kite the OP marines. Imagine having to pull SCVs to push away, what a disaster start.
Dont defend protoss, they have plenty of that.
I’m not defending protest per se, just pointing out that Terran is the easy race. No other race allows for wins from the singular, first attack unit made in the game.
The example I gave was mostly a Protoss ragequit, i dont know any1 to lose from 1 reaper … Yes reaper for the win EZ race 
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Maybe because a proxy barracks can kill a 1 base protoss if he doesn’t make a zealot before cyber? What would terrans do if they had to work for their wins?