Kerrigan and Zagara Revamp Proposal

Kerrigan and Zagara Improvement
I am writing this because as only commander who has no Panel I want them to make the commanders more powerful to compensate.
If it is too extreme, I’ll re organise the numbers.

I have uploaded two videos regarding Mastery 3.2 improvements in Youtube.
The video was made to demonstrate what I have envisioned, making Kerrigan more befitting as “One Woman Army” than “Woman leading an army”.
Some Functions are not entirely accurate because I could not properly make correct settings. But I tried to make it as accurate as possible.

1. 30 Points on Energy Regeneration (Killer in Ground)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSn_ynYKNY&feature=youtu.be

2. 30 Points on Attack (Killer in Air)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTUpHRN0Avo&feature=youtu.be

3. Mastery 3.2 From 30% to 45% (Abilities and Attack Speed only)(Balance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov7bA5c2AWY&feature=youtu.be

Kerrigan

  1. Balance Kereigan’s Third Mastery set
    You have two Mastery in 3rd power set.
    3.1. Super fast and cheap research
    3.2. Kerrigan increase in ability attack and Attack speed
    The 3.1 is the wayyyy better choice because you save tons of Money and time upgrading your units!
    For All ground upgrade + Kerrigan + Hydralisk upgrades you get whopping 2475 Mineral and gas ( 990 with full mastery). You can make powerful army quickly and cheaper

Can you add Multiplicative Improvement on
Kerrigan’s Carapace - 200 > 260CP 30% to 39% absorbtion
Fury - 50% to 65%
Chain Reaction - 25% to 32.5%
Heroic Fortitude - 200 > 260HP tp +130% regeneration
Ability Efficiency - 20 to 26% spell cost and cooldown decrease
Queen of Blades - Energy Regeneration 50% to 65%

  1. Please have a look at CHAIN REACTION
    Lot of people disagree on me with this but I am serious on wanting to tell the developers to consider…
  • Have Chain Attack do spell damage (armour value decreases her attack)
  • Have Chain Attack SHOULD recover Carapace
  • Have Chain Attack correspond to Kerrigan’s current attack 25% or 30% (+ Mastery 3.2 increase - would be nice).
  1. Psionic Dash + Leaping Attack
  • Have Psionic Dash decrease damage by 20% or 35%. (Heavy powerered units like immortal and thor smash Kerrigan AS SOON As she enters into them).
  • Have Leaping Attack doable without vision and allow Kerrigan to evade any attack during it (I thought one of the reason this ability exists is mobilizations and evasion).
  • Restore Kerrigan’s Range to 6
  • Her fury should last twice as long
  • Kerrigan’s Carapace depletes slower -5 per sec to -3 sec

Through Experiment, Increasing Mastery value of 3.2 from 1% to 1.5% also yields worthy effect.

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Zagara

  • Her Baneling Attacks benefit from All Baneling Upgrades (it doesn’t)

Zagara Baneling - 132 Damage (264 Structure) (Each Baneling)
Zagara Corpser Roach (Full Mastery) - 210 HP and 34.8

Zagara Mastery 3.1 (Roach Health and Attack)
Affects Drop Pods damages. I usually for for Fury because it has much higher overall damage output.

Infested Drops

  • Infested Drops also attack Air and does bonus +50 Damage to Structures

  • Roaches are now Corpsers and deal +20% more damage

  • Have Zagara get Regeneration Acid (useful of friendly Zerg commanders)

  • Zagara’s Medusa Spine target 2 more enemies.
    + Have Corruptors benefit from Scourge Gas reduction upgrade.

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I have run some tests within editor for Kerrigan.
I tweaked Kerrigan’s Mastery 3.2 so it also can affect other things like Fury, Carapace, Chain reaction etc by (so 30% is increased to 39% and 200 is increased to 260).
Look at the Original Post above.

The synergy from Tweaking was tremendous and yielded incredible effects. While it still isn’t safe for Kerrigan to go alone or get too wild but it made me feel that I spent my mastery point well enough.

These Experiments are done in CoA, in Brutal difficulty against zerg (I was unable to do Protoss and Terran becuase of Editor errors)

30 point on energy regeneration
Great synergy of Kerrigan’ Carapace maximum and absorbtion values and Queen of Blades and Ability efficiency upgrades.
Even with heavy beating (Ultralisks, Lurkers etc), her quick use of abilities kept her alive (but moderately damaged but she fully healed in 10 seconds or so). Dedicating 30 energy makes her powerful ground dealer

30 point on Kerrigan attack
Great synergy of improved Fury and Chain Reactions. I also set her range back to 6 from 3
Kerrigan’s already impressive speed improved to 0.51 per shot while Chain reaction dealt over 22 damage. While mowing through swarms of mutalisks and broodlords, her Carapace soared almost as fast she was damaged. Dedicating 30 Damage makes her great Anti Air dealer.

In conclusion, having Mastery 3.2 of applied to other Kerrigan’s other passive abilites and upgrades made 3.2 well worthy of investment. What is more interesting is, 3.2 showed even more amazing synergy with Mastery set 1.
If I wanted to made Kerrigan more of a solo Commander like Dehaka, I would have much obliged to choose improved version Mastery 3.2.
This still doesn’t make Kerrigan into a Xel’Naga but 3.2 does make her into a true one woman Army.

That is like saying to improve commanders that don’t use their heroic unit such as Mensgk, Karax, or H&H. They have their “panel” powers on the hero itself.

19 Likes

Other Heroes have their Ultimates + Panels

Kerrigan and Zagara Don’t

No one had both until Alarak came along.

Different commanders are different.

13 Likes

3.2 is wayyyyyyy better because you don’t need units.

3 Likes

Eh, I think both 3.1 and 3.2 are excellent, and (imo) they’re a proper set of masteries because going into one or the other affects how you play without creating a weakness.

Going 30 in both 1.2 and 3.2 gives her a non-frenzy 60dps. With frenzy and creep she’s almost 100 auto attack dps. Not bad, good with carapace. Going 1.1 and 3.2 as 30, Kerri alone can shred basically any ground comp though air is a bit rough.

Going hard into 3.1 lets Kerri have more mid game power, though early game power suffers (with late fairly even, and extreme late favouring 3.2 again). She’s easily able to do complex upgrade path comps like Ling/Muta, with full upgrades to both extremely early on.


But yeah, really the only CO that has the best of both worlds is Dehaka. Alarak’s top bar is reasonably small and less effective than many, Nova’s is strong but costly, Tychus has arguably only one top bar ability, and Stetmann needs to have power in an area before the top bar is useful.

Kerri easily is one if not the best hero in coop; and Zagara has both one of the fastest economy, and the fastest army rebuild in the game. Immobilization Wave and Roach Drop are just as good as most top bar ultimates, better than many.

3 Likes

Having a Top Bar/Panel just for the sake of it doesn’t seem productive.

It’s rare, but I’ve had Zagara and Kerrigan Allies leave during the game. It’s nice in that case b/c I can still access their full powers without that player around.

8 Likes

Kerrigan definitely doesn’t need ANY sort of buffing. Her hero unit is so strong she doesn’t need a top bar.

Zagara doesn’t either, although she’s not as versatile as Kerrigan but that’s fine, where she shines she truly shines.

6 Likes

No, no, and no. Kerrigan herself doesn’t need any sort of buffs, and Zagara could make use of a base +3/+3 access like Zeratul can, but she doesn’t need it. The commanders are fairly fine as it is.

9 Likes

But some of them Do have problem and untapped potential.
Are you all saying to leave them?

I know each Commanders are different and unique but some of people especially me find it uncomfortable when it remains untouched and unfulfilled.

Yes. Address their actual design-based issues like Zagara’s Corruptors and Stetmann’s BattleCarrier Lords. Don’t give them stuff they don’t really need.

8 Likes

I see the reason to buff Zagara but i really doing think Kerrigan needs that much of a buff for her base hero, but as for unit i wont lie that Zagara zergling are more cost effective to build than Kerrigan. But you also need look and what units Kerrigan’s has that Zagara doesn’t have. Like i personally don’t ever build Zagara’s corruptor or aberation because i personally think there supply cost is to high considering Zagara low supply cap.

Kerringan and Zegara are the “Panel”.

1 Like

I think you’re confusing “untapped potential” with “clear and obvious deficiency”.

Kerrigan and Zagara can do well on their own unlike some certain units in their respective rosters I could name.

Also, I hate to say it but what you are asking for qualifies as power creep.

I heard some people even calling Kerrigan OP commander. While i dont agree with that opinion, Keriigan certainly needs no buff. Zagara could use some corruptor improvement and cost reduction for corruptors and aberrations. Maybe something could be done about bile launchers. But they are just awkward but not at any measure useless. Kerrigan top bar is assimilation aura and immobilization wave (ultimate calldown with least cooldown time comparing to others). Zagaras top bar is mass frenzy and roach drop.

Here is reason why I am Writing the Post.

Unit Upgrade = Empower Heroes

Kerrigan and Zagara pretty much hits their maximum when they finish evolving in evolution chamber. Besides they are Hero orientated commanders I want them to “grow” just a little bit more, maybe I want them applied on all heroes (Alarak, Nova, Fenix, Gary).

KERRGIAN

3.2 Ability and Attack Speed Mastery 30% to 45%

I said this many many times, Mastery 3.1 Research time is a really good Mastery but 3.2 isn’t good. I can only see it effective in Full Mastery and comparing that to 3.1 Mastery the 3.2 Mastery isn’t that good. and Besides 3.2 encourages stronger Kerrigan than her army and the Mastery isn’t doing its job right.

Psionic Dash

The reason I proposed 50% decrease is that Kerrigan Die easily against Heavy Ordinance. Against Light Units they are fantastic though.

Leaping Strike

This is more about Range Penalty (-3). Is there a reason to keep having decreased range for her other than Campaign Reason? This may decrease her +10 Attack but range will give Kerrigan more Edge on Air which she severely lacks (I know its her weakness but its not a good idea to make that commander totally worthless against that Weakness).

Chain Reaction

This Ability is really Useless. This is why.

  1. Gives not Armour bonus
  2. ineffective by Armour values
  3. Only 10 damage (Just make it 25% of current attack)

Some of people said “She gets Free 4 Hydralisk attack”. Getting additional non upgradable Ladder hydralisk attack isn’t that… well… adequate.

ZAGARA

Having Zagara’s Baneling attack benefit from Baneling Upgrades

No matter where it came from, They are All Banelings. Let them have this.

Medusa Spines

Actually leave them be. That’s my bad.

Regneration Acid

Regeneration Acid will greatly benefit Abherations and Zerglings and commander’s bio units. Zagara’s Baneling Attack will become very beneficial in quickly healing your army.

Infested Drops

This Ability is incomplete from my perspective. It is awesome to see Droppods raining down on enemies damaging them. But why don’t they attack air Units? (I mean unlike ESO it has long cooldown and Orbital Strike can damage air units).

Roaches are Unimpressive from my perspective. They are just “Roaches”. Even with +60% Bonus They are just tough meat shields…
You may say “Yeah! cause they are meat shields”, But I say… “Yeah, but Zagara has no ranged units…”
I wish them to cause more havoc than just attack, That is why I proposed Corpser Roach with 50% attack.

Also I proposed Mastery should affect Pod Damages since Roaches Bloat in size from Mastery they come from bigger pods. Bigger Pods could have Bigger Damage.

These are the reasons why posted the Original Post to fulfill unfulfilled potential. I think these will make them stronger but I don’t think it will make them So Strong this can be qualified as Power Creeping.

Conclusion

And about having Kerrigan and Zagara benefit from upgrades for compensating them without Panels, I thought about it twice, I guess unit upgrades isn’t too necessary.
Panels are about making the attack more effective but more importantly turning the tide and Kerrigan and Zagara do have that (with relatively short cooldown).
But I am still adamant about some ability concerns.

Then you are an idiot and can’t read. 3.2 is Ability Damage and Attack Speed. This affects her Leaping Strike AND Psionic Shift. This is a huge part of being able to just wipe waves as Kerrigan. More damage = More Carapace generated = More effective HP. Gives her a stupid amount of early game presence.

Early/Mid Game you should be fine using Leap into Shift against stuff like that. Later on, you should already have Ability Efficiency, and be able to use Immobilization Wave to deal with it. If it’s air, then just get as many Hydras as possible.

??? How would giving her more range be an edge against air? Tempests, Guardians, and Liberators all still heavily out range her. This change wouldn’t really do anything.

This is the only thing I’d be okay with changing. Chain Reaction has pretty much always been bad.

The only problem is that you want your Banelings to go in first, then use the rest to clean up. And if you have a full army of Banelings, Regenerative Acid is basically pointless. No one in the Campaign even really uses it, as there are much better options.

Zagara, Hydra Summons and Corruptors. But I guess they don’t count.

Slightly agree but is mostly true.

Number 1

No HERO units (I used “HERO” to distinguished from heroic units which are Tychus’s units, Brutalisks, Leviathans, Call-down ultimates… HERO units are only Zeratul, Nova, Zagara, Alarak, Gary) should have a BASE damage above 50 without the use of mastery.

We overlook Zeratul because he is Melee unit, have only 1 mediocre damaging ability, no summon abilities or sustainable abilities (life steal, healing…) and have no reliable mean to buff his attack or attack speed.

It is absolutely absurd that Kerrigan have a total of 97 BASE damage and Zagara with 78.

Kerrigan herself can get attack speed buff reliably from 3 sources
_ Fury (up to +50%)
_ Enhanced Creep (+30%)
_ Mastery (+30%)

For a total of +110% attack speed, more than double her base attack speed. In term of DPS, it is 84 at normal value and up to 147 with full mastery.

All of these attack damage and speed are not counting any of her damaging ability.

Her range is also ok since she got 2 abilities to shorten the distance. It may be redundant but 3 range is good.

She herself even with 40 base damage is already plenty enough as a HERO unit that you get for free and self-resurrect for free.

Zagara herself with the Medusa blade (33% damage to secondary targets) can deal much more damage with the mastery from 10 damage for secondary target to 20 damage. Any further damage increment is not needed.

Zagara herself as a HERO unit is a Summoning caster unit, not a damage dealer such as Kerrigan. She herself does not need more attack damage so stop suggesting thing that would dilute her uniqueness as an unit.

Zagara herself is competent enough to even outplay Kerrigan as a HERO unit because Zagara have absolutely no weakness be it swarming enemies, Strong units or air attack wave. Zagara and her summoned units can handle any composition of units if they are small enough.

Both Zagara and Kerrigan as HERO units are already balanced. They are strong enough for a FREE HERO.

Number 2

The comparison between Kerrigan Mastery set 3 is lacking analysis.
The Research cost Reduction is indeed strong
but the Ability damage and attack speed mastery is also good.

The first mastery will only be useful IF you finished the research faster and generally it is for a faster Army Build.

The second mastery is useful the moment Kerrigan herself awake. It requires no in-mission research or costing any mineral or gas. It effectively speed up the Proccing of Kerrigan’s Fury and also increase her damage output and sustainability through 30% life leech. The Ability damage increase will allow Kerrigan to kill units which she normally can not one-shot such as Marauder with Psionic Shift and Reaver with Leaping Strike.

Number 3
The Chain Reaction shortcoming have already been discussed back in August 2019 and may be long before that but at least my Topic reached the consensus that Chain Reaction should ignore armour value and also provide Carapace, its 10 damage is good enough and should, therefore, not be changed.
The reasoning behind this is because Chain Reaction can deal more damage as Kerrigan attack faster and since she has the means to reliably increase her atk spd, it is futile to increase its damage or making any other change except Allowing it to provide Carapace and ignore armour.

Number 4
Zagara’s Baneling Barrage is an ability and it deals spell damage. The Baneling she summoned as nothing more than cosmetic effect. Hence, the ability itself does not benefit from unit attack upgrade.

While it is sad that her Baneling Barrage can’t benefit from the upgrade, it does deal spell damage and ignore armour. That should be good enough.

Number 5
While i do not like Roach Drop Pod at all. Your suggestion is nothing more than power creeping. I will only agree with the Drop Pods deal damage to Air and deal bonus damage against Structures and nothing more. Hunter Killer should not be buffed by Roach Mastery.

Number 6
Both Zagara and Kerrigan are ok enough without any need to buff further. I personally suggest we nerf every single commanders + the difficulties because of all the power creeping that came along with Brutal+.

2 Likes

You haven’t done the math.

Base:
40 damage (80 vs structure) x 6 Banelings = 240 damage (480 vs structure)

Baneling Mastery at max (+30 to base damage):
70 damage (110 vs structure) x 6 Banelings = 420 damage (660 vs Structure)

Corrosive Acid upgrade (Baneling Nest):
Double the base damage to primary target, so +40 (+80 vs structure)
Splash damage is unchanged from above

Base + Mastery + Corrosive Acid:
40 + 30 + 40 = 110
80 + 30 + 80 = 190 vs structure

110 (190 vs structure) x 6 Banelings = 660 damage (1140 vs structure)

660 damage vs primary ground target and 1140 damage vs structure are way too high considering the spell only has a 10 second cooldown.

It’s clearly overpowered.

1 Like