Recently with Hero saying he will not be playing protoss vs zerg in the future because “he cant make it work” got me thinking about the state we are in for protoss. I think its pretty clear that we need some love.
Ive also been thinking about when protoss was really fun to play an honestly its been a long time. I remember a time when we had so many build orders to choose from and then it all got nerfed and we are forced into very specific build orders from then on.
What I am specifically referring to is the void ray changes and the disruptor changes. The voidray meta was an amazing time for protoss back in 2021 and having those skytoss styles be open felt very fun. Admittedly it wasnt great for the other races and thats why they patched it. But it has left the voidray in a really bad position being widely regarded as one of the worst units in the protoss roster. My proposed change is that we drop the cost by 50 minerals. I honestly think that is all it would take to make the voidray significantly more viable. We would see a return of alot of those cheeses we lost as well as alot more voidray skytoss play and I think that diversity would be really cool.
For the disruptor it was its damage nerf. The disruptor used to one shot maurders and roaches. That lead to these amazing 2 base robo styles that we really just dont see anymore. I understand it might be difficult to tweak it vs terran since I dont 100% believe it needs to 1 shot a marauder but it should 1 shot a roach. Especially with the new larva changes where zergs are just pumping out units, having a robo unit being able to clean up alot of that would be a really interesting re-introduction to the game. And honestly I just really miss those times when you got those massive hits. For me that was peak SC2 and if we are in a time where we are doing changes then that is a change I would love to see.
I also understand that the other races are going to jump on this post and be like hell no I dont want these things. But like the title says its just an idea.
Hero refuses to adapt to the new Gateway mechanics which allow you to mass expand and get a huge economy early on which makes any costs to upgrading warp gates individually to be irrelevant once your economy is established. Now should Hero be forced to “THE ONE TRUE WAY OF PLAYING”? Of course not and so he is frustrated he HAS to play a particular opening one way or another every game which is one reason among many 5.0.16 is total crap. One base Terran builds used to be viable in TvP and sometimes TvZ in 5.0.15 but now aside from proxy rax cheeses, the “ONE TRUE WAY OF PLAYING” is now maximizing mineral income on Orbital commands (and surviving) rather than focusing on limiting the other player’s economy. Hero is not switching to Zerg for TvP because Terran is still crap in this matchup so why would he, however, Zerg is relatively overpowered because the mass expand mechanics useful in PvT don’t apply in PvZ unless you are willing to expand off of one gate and build some cannons which almost all Protoss elite players seem anathema to doing because the standard is to defend your third using just some well placed Adepts and Oracles. Even then the increased zerg larva means Zerg doesn’t have to make early game decisions with a shortage of larva as they can go both lings and drones without a problem whereas in 5.0.15 Zerg player’s had to be absolutely perfect with Larva injects to both produce enough lings to survive and build drones consistently at the same time. Now Zerg can have their cake and eat it too.
Tier 1 spam is one of the more unpleasant side effects of the latest patch and that kind of style serves a Solar or Rogue better than a Hero, especially since zealots can be hard countered by banelings and Stalkers can be overwhelmed by lings now with the increased larva regen.
Bold of you to assume you know better than hero. Hero practises nearly the whole day, every single day. He plays every cup. On every Server. He invented multiple new styles and you see dozens of Experimental strats of him when you watch his games. He is the best or second best protoss Player of All time.
But yeah i guess some random guy on this forum says He just simply has to adapt to gateway change then obviously i believe you - and not hero. After all you have proven your knowledge by building bcs vs ultras because ghosts are too bad.
You misunderstand what I said and didn’t quote the rest of what I said. Hero has his own style and with patch 5.0.16 you are really forced to play a macro style now instead of cheese and pressure which Hero is notorious for. Having every creative player (like Hero) be forced to play like Clem every game is bad for the game, especially for content creators because stale games make for stale content.
My point is that if you don’t respect the new macro mechanics and new mineral economy focus, then you are going to be playing at a disadvantage relative to the opposing player doing these things. The Rock, Paper, Scissors aspect of the early to mid-game is now just rock versus rock as the paper is already crumbled and the scissors are too rusty and dull to cut anything.
A macro style where you are always behind. Thats exactly what hero says which is why he wants to switch to zerg in pvz.
he invented (or perfected) gatewayman. surely its rather pressure but its also just plain macro.
Hero is the player that instantly takes the map vs terran. he is has a top notch macro play.
Clem is also really really really famous for being a pressure player.
My point stands.
You, a rando who thinks bcs can counter ultralisks, think you know something that hero simply didnt think about.
How about that: I make a new patch and nerf marines and they deal 3 damage less. Now i tell you that clem just needs to adapt and think reaaaaaaaaally hard about the game. In reality i just made a sh!tty patch and completly destroyed the game balance and make terran unplayable.
Its not that hero has difficulties to adapt because he cannot think about something. He has difficulties because the race sucks now.
This is some very bizarre pilpul. You are saying I am claiming the exact opposite of what I actually say in each sentence of mine that you dissect which is classical Reddit bad-faith debate where you try and exhaust what someone has to say and are critical of every sentence even if the sentence agrees with whatever your original points happen to be. Then you make an ad-hominem attack to say I am just some rando because I believe BC’s counter Ultralisks which they obviously do as Ultralisks can’t attack BC’s and BC’s can kill Ultralisks and relatively quick compared to all other units. The viability of BC’s killing Ultralisks depends more on protecting your BC’s from Corruptors and other counters Zerg has which I was very clear about. So you are trying to discredit my comments by attacking me personally on an unrelated topic which I am logically and factually correct about while claiming I am wrong at the same time and then making some hyperbolic comparison about making marines do 3 damage. It is almost like you are hounding every single comment I make on these forums for some reason with full blown Reddit style contrarianism.
I guess you had like 6 people disagreeing with you and some even were terrans. You are wrong about that. Yes in theory bcs are good vs ultralisks because ultralisks cant shoot up as you have assessed correctly. But in reality its a bad idea to build bcs vs ultralisks.
which demonstrated the lack of your understanding. Yes its a bit uncalled for. But i think we should start calling out armchair assessments. Who are you to judge? What is your expertise? Why do you know better than hero? The thing that always pisses me off is people thinking they know better than the professionals.
Look, it’s completely okay to question things and discuss them. But sometimes it’s good to question yourself. You have to accept that they are the professionals and you aren’t. This is a neglected practice on Reddit and on these forums. It’s so tiring.
This is an example of nerfing a race hard and then claiming “you just need to find solutions”.
You basically said “hey hero you need to l2p”. Meanwhile hero is not struggling because he misses something. He is struggling because his race is in a bad state.
Would you tell clem to learn to play if marines get nerfed this hard? Would you?
To me this looks like “hey hero why dont you learn to play? you just need to adapt to the new gateway mechanics”.
Hero certainly knows more about sc2 than you. Shocking, i know. I guess if hero the “smiling assassin” who always says gg and who smiles even when get taken out 0:4 says he just cant anymore, then maybe, just maybe something is wrong. And we dont need a random forum guy to tell him to learn to play. Especially not if that guy builds bcs vs ultras.