okay we can all play that game - why is it that terran is the only race with its baseline unit (Zerling/marine/zealot) is ranged. why is it terran the only race with its baseline unit is able to target air?
why is it that zerg is the only race without the ability to drain its opponents energy?
Terran and Protoss have them. zerg does not. THATS NOT FAIR!
DIFFERENT RACES ARE DIFFERENT MYOHMIND.
ZvP win rates?
Winrates are fluff. For example TvP can have ābalanced win ratesā but the only reason they are is because of things like proxy play(back when the cyclone was how it was) and the current 2 base all-ins going on.
Win rates donāt tell you anything about the design, balance and meta.
How do I want to nerf the infestor and why would I want to nerf it into the ground?.
Unless you are implying that Ravens have been nerfed into the ground and you fear that Infestors require a similar treatment to stop players from massing them in the late game.
You sound exactly like Terrans back in the day about Mass AAM raven.
So if one race has powerful AOE spells to use in the late game, and one has none. Which one ends up killing more armies?.
GSL Code S Season 1 - 50%.
GSL Code S Season 2 - 49.1% (Protoss favored, slightly).
WCS Spring 43.4% (Protoss Favored)
WCS Summer 50%.
WAAAH.
WAAAH.
WAAAH.
ZvP right now comes down to(for the Protoss side) killing Zerg with a 2 base all-in or dying in the late game to Infestor-brood-spore.
The power of those 2 base all-ins are amplified by the WP pick up range.
just the other day you said to change it to 3 supply.
thats a 50% nerf.
except terran winrates werenāt balanced. zerg are.
QQ More.
youāre the one telling us everyone has to have access to the same tools.
Give Zerg a late game capital ship that can target both air and ground.
why not? terran and protoss have one./
give zerg an ability to drain energy from protoss and terran casters.
why not? terran and protoss have one.
OMG, ShatZ will gain the gratitude of this fine-gentlemen in the usual way (by being called dumb/stupid/idiot and the gentlemen will tell ShatZ that he knows a s.h.i.t. because he is Plat/Dia Legue, whereas the fine-gentleman that makes Bronze-mistakes is a M1 5200 EU Terran)ā¦
Wait and seeā¦
2/3 of the forum have received this treatment, why Mr. ShatZ should be an exception?
Yeah, I would like to see that if you can. I started following him a month or so ago (when I first learned of him). He has had the most success vs late game Zerg armies of anyone Iāve seen in the world.
Obviously, part of the key is to simply tech to your ultimate army from the get go, but his name should really be KingTurtle. He always gives Zerg the time to do w/e they want, seemingly negating the āfirst tech advantage.ā
Part of me wants to think heās just better than everyone else at managing that army. The other part of me wonders how much of it is due to him always insta leaving vs Toss, basically ensuring heās always playing against lower MMR players than himself (what his MMR should be).
In my experience, sans KingCobra, Iāve only seen Toss win one game late game against Zerg where they had mass infestors. I saw Stats kill like 15 infestors with 1 shot. It was absurd. I also saw Stats lose to the same comp, today, on the same map, and be utterly bewildered.
Itās to the point where you almost start to wonder when these guys will start retiring, as it is reaching swarm host in HotS frustration levels.
I always go disruptor, carrier, so Iām fully aware that disruptors are really good against infestors, to a point. At low infestor counts, itās not an issue. Itās only when Zerg starts to MASS them that you canāt win. Zerg might be able to throw the game, but Iāve only won in such scenarios via warp prisms and killing a guyās base with warp-ins.
so nerf zerg in a way that doesnāt COMPLETELY FRAG THEIR LATE GAME AA!
Gosh how hard is that?
But in hindsight a nerf that would do nothing since Zerg frees up so much supply with creating static defenses.
Can you honestly say that Infestor-broodlord every single Zerg late game is fun to watch or fight against? How is seeing 20+ infestors killing everything good for the game?.
Could you answer the following questions?.
What spell is the Infestor frequently used for AA?. IT or Fungal?
Why does Zerg need to mass 20+ infestors every late game against Protoss and even Terran?.
How many roles does the infestor fill?. What units in the Zerg arsenal also fill those roles?.
How do the Viper and Infestors spells overlap each other?.
How would you buff other Zerg units so Zerg doesnāt have to rely on Infestors for ground AOE and AA?. Which units would you buff?.
So you are saying Infestor-Brood is so OP that Zerg expect and should expect to automatically win when they get it. Also that the only reason why Zerg wins anything is because of the power of Infestor-Brood.
Or are you Implying that Mass Infestor is zergs late game.
bullcrap it does nothing.
does making the marine 2 supply do nothing? obviously it has an impact.
if you make the infestor 3 supply instead of 2, either i have to cut back on the amount of infestors i build, or cut back on army supply elsewhere.
you are a horrible liar.
thatās like when you were saying doubling the energy cost of IT isnāt a nerf, when anyone with more brain cells then the village idiot knows otherwise.
every single game? funny. i saw lots of games at WCS summer that involved zerg that didnāt involve Infestor Brood Lord.
i also see lots of games in GSL that donāt go that route either.
does it matter? the fact is that zerg late game AA was so bad in the past that blizzard purposely added the viper to give zerg late game AA abilities. this didnāt prove enough and the IT was then buffed to further help. everyone is well AWARE of how bad late game zerg AA used to be. so therefore if you are going to nerf the Infestor the way YOU want to, you would have to compensate zerg late game AA elsewhere. this is non negotiable. we saw for years how bad late game zerg AA was.
because it actually works? guess what happened before the IT got buffed? zerg late game AA was weak.
late game AA? the corruptor - and it doesnāt trade well against late game terran and protoss air armies.
does that matter? you could say that the sentry and HT combine very well. donāt see you QQing your butt off about that.
i wouldnāt. the problem is the other zerg options STINK period. too much of the one dynamic āthis attacks only airā or āThis only attacks groundā or āThis is a harassment unitā
zerg doesnāt have a late game air unit that hits BOTH air and ground.
no, iām saying that you canāt nerf the composition without buffing other zerg late game AA options. which you fail to do time and time again.
your planned āCompensationā is purely ground only units with the exception of buffing the Mutalisk, which is a harassment unit and does NOTHING against late game capital ships.
In the late stage, the protoss would only have 100 supply army, as the other 100 supply army would be abducted by infestors. At the same time, the zerg would have 200 supply of its own army, 100 supply abducted protoss army, 200 supply spore crawlers, 200 supply infested marines spawned by the infestors and 200 supply army that are still as larvae.
Here is a long video (several such games but i selected one in 4:18:24) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzoHWgBvrDY
I all those games zergs did not create a single Viper (that would complicate the fight).
He skips Protoss usually but when he ladders (rarely TBH, he plays all 3 MU).
no, what i am implying is that the rest of the late game zerg AA arsenal is poorly suited to taking down capital ships, and without buffs to the rest of the game zerg AA you canāt in good faith nerf the infestor the way you want to.
remember zerg late game AA before LotV? turrible.
remember zerg late game AA in LotV against capital ships pre infestor buff? bad.
if you honestly think its not fair for zerg to have infestor brood lord because its āToo strong in the late gameā.
you canāt in good faith say that late game zerg AA was good before the infestor buff either because that leads right back to āDonāt let them get thereā.
except zerg is back on the losing end.
GO ahead. nerf the infestor. after you buff other late game AA options.
Thank you. Every time I see him stream, though, heās always playing unranked. And I looked at his ladder stats. He was at 40% in P vs P, so he has to be leaving a lot of those, too. When it comes to vipers, for what ever reason, Iāve found that only top Zergs really seem to utilize vipers properly.
For w/e reason, only the top Zergs seem to know how many vipers to make and how to properly utilize them. You get a sense that Zerg face late game Toss so infrequently, that theyāre usually playing it worse than the Toss.
Plus, I think there is a huge segment of Zergs, even in GM, that donāt even use hotkeys, which really makes late game far harder than it should be. Their lack of fundamentals basically removes units from the game.
Itās ironic but he objectively is at the 6000-6200MMR range in EU and i checked the zerg opponent ā¦that terrible battle was between a 5000MMR Zerg vs. a 6000MMR Protoss.
Two days ago he defeated Snute in a normal macro game (as to be expected he usually loses 90% of games vs. Snute).
Every single Zergās late game goal and late game composition is Infestor-Brood-spore.
Yes it does. If ITās are used more for AA, you nerf Fungal. If Fungal is used more for AA, you nerf ITās.
You donāt even know how I would actually nerf the infestor, nor have you asked at all.
So you have identified that Zergs mass 20+ Infestors to spam ITās and not for Fungal or NP.
Also that Mass Infestor can handle pretty much any threat and pretty much any unit.
Infestors fill the following roles:
It does matter since Fungal and Parabomb damage can stack, also that Fungals debuff makes the micro counter to Parabomb(splitting the PB unit away) not possible.
Also how you can use Abduct to NP enemy units more easily.
You are complaining that the other Zerg options suck, but you donāt want to buff them so they donāt suck?.
You also complain about something that both Terran and Protoss have when it comes to what unit can attack what.
How is mass infestor a unit composition?. A composition implies a mixed balanced of different units to cover weaknesses and handle threats.
Thatās why you give it a vs armored upgrade or a separate Air attack.
Corruptors do they very well especially with support, upgrades and focus firing.
Both Carriers and BCās are weaker now against air.
let me use this as an example.
late game corruptors vs late game BC
since you say that the corruptor is a counter to bc (youāve claimed this repeatedly).
equal supply - 6 bc (36 supply) vs 18 corruptors (36 supply).
the bcs yamato each 1 corruptor.
12 vs 6.
the corrupts fully upgraded do 26 damage a shot (20 after armor upgrades). that means you need 27.5 shots from a corruptor to kill a bc.
assuming focus fire that means that it will take 2 full volleys and then 4 from the 3rd volley to kill them off. thats 2.72 seconds to kill just the first bc.
meanwhile the 6 bcs are doing 3 damage a shot, or needing 67 full shots to kill off a corruptor. that means 11 full volleys from each bc and a extra one somewhere.
each bc attacks every .16 seconds, that means 1.72 seconds for the bcs to kill a corruptor.
1.72 seconds into the fight 7 corruptors are dead and 1 bc is at 150 health.
iāll let you do the rest of the math.
funny because one of the games you were whining about serral he didnāt go the mass infestor brood lord you were talking about. he only had like 3-4 infestors.
youāre argument is already invalid.
WAAAH POOR YOU>
why? can we nerf protoss and t erran late game capital ships?
combination of buffs. waah.
so go ahead and nerf it. ONLY AFTER YOU BUFF UNITS TO FULLFILL THE ROLES THAT IT FILLS THOUGH.
do you see the problem with this? youāre literally forcing yourself into a point where you have to buff about 4 other units in the zerg arsenal just so you can nerf the infestor the way you want.
seems stupid to me. wait for the yearly overhaul before doing something like that instead of just trying it during a balance patch.
it doesnāt make microing not possible. it makes it take longer to split them. thatās all. big difference.
if it was making it NOT POSSIBLE that would mean you couldnāt move the unit at all.
once again myohmind is lieing.
no, what i donāt want is to put zerg in a situation where for a lousy balance patch we have to buff 3-4 zerg units to compensate for nerfing 1 zerg unit.
wait till the yearly overhaul.
so those games were played with purely mass infestor?
there was no
lings/ravagers/roaches/hydras/vipers/corruptors/brood lords/static defense?
strange. i must have been watching different games.
lies.
see above. equal supply of bcs would beat equal supply of corruptors.