Infestor is an insult to all the Terran and Protos pros

[RMJ-2538]

There is a reason why players rely on infestors. because the other units are garbage. It’s been this way since release. Even back in beta, people asked Blizzard to remove infestors, and just buff ordinary units to make them more viable.

You cannot just nerf or take away the infestor in a vacuum. Try and play at high level as zerg and not use infestor. Then see how many games you win?.

Most zerg units have an extremely low skill / micro ceiling. Unless you wanna call micro ultralisk that are completely brain dead and gets stuck behind other units, even zerglings, for good micro.

When we watch these games, time and time you see how protoss and terran can cheese a zerg, then fail, then still win the game or at the very least drag it out for 20-30 min. If a zerg cheese fails, game is over, sometime it can even succeed and then zerg still has to play a 20-30 min game then losses.

Why is it that zerg is not allowed to cheese?. It’s like as zerg, you just have to sit back shut up and take it. Why does hatcheries not produce creep while building? that would make some cheese viable and it would still be the most expensive of cheese. Why can overlord only carry 8 lings? but 2 ultralisk? should a transport not be based on supply?.

The list just goes on and on and on.

They even nerfed creep, because we cannot have that skillful players block enemy expo with creep. Oh nydus is viable and the enemy has to pay attention? nerf…

It’s like the Blizzard design philosophy for zerg is, sit idle, macro and maybe win.

In a good game, all races have proximity the same win chance in early, medium and late game. Zerg usually has to get to the late game to win. It’s been like that for most of starcraft 2 .

Protoss can still cheese zerg, who see’s it coming, plans for it, then still loses, because protoss is pro?.

[Daihinmin-1355]

Doesn’t take that much imagination. It’s what Zergs were doing vs Protoss last year with hydra/ling/bane timings. Guess how that turned out?

[ShivanDragon-11160]

I’m far from a good SC player, but I think Immortals got overnerfed. 275 minerals?
it use to be 200 yet they were even better with it’s passive shield.

[anon79962274]

@ShivanDragon-11160

275 minerals?
it use to be 200

Immortals have never costed 200 minerals. They used to cost 250.

[bf109-1324]

250. And if you’re talking about the passive shield, then other units from all three race got nerfed too. It’s all about a tactics and a system in general.

[llllllllllll-12402]

@bf109-1324

Infestor’s three skills all have problems. And can you believe that infestor requires only 2 supplies?

And what’s else? The Raven, that flying lump of sh*t, costs more than an infestor… And Zerg lady bois all cry that the Infestor isn’t broken…

[tskarz-1862]

That comeback from Elazer vs Neeb was pretty gross. Neeb splitting attack groups faster than Shine could follow it while Elazer just turtled and massed two units. Could he have handled the last engage better? Sure. But seeing a 13 drone Elazer roll a nearly maxed Neeb with 2 units is not what I’d consider entertaining…

[anon14992022]

I think that Time played really well up to the point when he had BCs in super late game. He threw away too many ressources by loosing them because he didn’t scan or didn’t try to hard-counter the zerg BC counter.
Neeb also did very well but if you let the zerg surround you / flank you…

Though to get another open-minded idea about balance, I would like to see a comparisson of situations from different skill levels so the game is more balanced for all levels of skill.

I think that infestors are strong, not op.
TvZ late-game or TvZ in general shouldn’t be a problem after the next patch as Terran gets buffs for the early game (stim) and late-game (emp upgrade).

However, in PvZ I don’t like the recall nerf as it will make the game more static for protoss. The 2base zealot-allin will be nerfed hard and I think it was too strong, but I would like to see a late-game buff to protoss similar to the emp upgrade of Terran. Maybe a buff to halluzinations like half the cost for an upgrade. Zerg can spam tons of changelings that can be denied - if protoss can spam hallucinations, it would make a difference in the quality of engagements.
Maybe something similar to the cost and research duration of overlord speed.

[Nitrousoxide-11538]

I havent watched Esports in like a year or so, but at that time I remeber SpeCial and Serral being God-Tier players leagues above Neeb and would hardly call them his peers.

[anon14992022]

https : // youtu . be / H24wtD1rSIk?t=4197
Game 4, 21:30 game time
Elazer gets a sick flank on Neeb. Imagine, Neeb would’ve scouted the flank with like 4-5 chargelots. Game over.
Why would you want to take away a move like this for any race? Just outplayed.

[tEhbAtZ-1845]

@Daihinmin-1355

Doesn’t take that much imagination. It’s what Zergs were doing vs Protoss last year

Zerg absolutely cannot rush broods on 2 bases.

[Hallo-2564]

@tskarz-1862

But seeing a 13 drone Elazer roll a nearly maxed Neeb with 2 units is not what I’d consider entertaining…

but that’s not the whole story you’re telling now.

[tskarz-1862]

Elazer had a decent army supply, albeit smaller than Neeb’s, and he had some nice ling counters, but you can sum that game up simply. Turtle + brood/infestor appears to be too strong.

[CrusaderKing-1612]

@tEhbAtZ-1845

Elazer was threading the needle. Even 1 misstep vs those nukes and the game is over. This sort of playstyle is extremely difficult and zergs only do it because it’s the only way for zerg to win. Imagine how mad players would be if zerg were strong enough to win games at the 10 minute mark instead of the 45 minute mark.

Imagine, for example, if zergs could rush 1 broodlord on 2 bases and insta-kill a terran who has massed static defense and has twice the resources invested into defense than the broodlord cost. Zergs having to play a 45 minute long game in order to win is a symptom of zerg being underpowered, not the other way around

Is it more likely for a zerg to make GSL vs World finals or a terran on a similar level as Elazers?

Elazer played well, but one of the main reasons he got to the finals on his lowly level comparatively, is because he played zerg.

Do you see a world in which a terran at Elazers level is going to the finals?

[Hallo-2564]

if i remember correctly, neebs army was gateunits and imortal. against bl/inf. mine only if i send tons of roach against immortal+Wp. can little supply immortal+Wp still win.

[VichelChaos-2623]

The problem with that argument is that his race cannot carry him against Dark, one of the best if not the best korean zerg, the winner of the last GSL and a player htat has been hanging at the top of the korean food chain for a very long time. If we are going to go with the narrative that korean players are better than foreigners, then his hardest opponent to beat to get to the finals is actually the guy who plays the same race as him. After beating that guy, the other two opponents seem easier in comparison.

If we use the argument here that foreign zergs are better than koreans zergs, then what would be the problem in Elazer making finals either way? The guy played out of his mind for this one tournament, these kinds of things happen.

Its like if TIME or Special or another foreign terran got to the finals and in the process beats Maru, or Showtime making finals after beating Stats. After that, they wouldnt be questioned, but Elazer in this case is, for some reason.

[Mateus-1852]

So. It is clear that this next balance change will not solve the problem. That´s because the real problem is in fact the neural parasite, although infested terrans are very good too.

So no. Stop saying we (protoss players) are getting what we want. The imbalance will continue because of neural parasite. It has such a big range that is almost impossible to counter it.

As a protoss player I´m not here just to be biased towards any nerf on zerg, but just to really balance the game and make the game better, that´s why I agree with the prism nerf too and even I agree with some kind of cannon rush nerf (asap). Cannon rushes are cancerious. Cannons should build slower outside the super conduit area as a warpgate unit.

[Daihinmin-1355]

pretty sure I specified it was with hydra/ling/bane. Reread the part you selectively edited out of my quote.

Weird thing is my point is about the fact that Zergs were using powerful hydra/ling/bane timings but they got nerfed so that late game turtle is now the optimal strategy which doesn’t conflict with your statement so I have no idea why you are misrepresenting what I said.

[CrusaderKing-1612]

@VichelChaos-2623

The problem with that argument is that his race cannot carry him against Dark, one of the best if not the best korean zerg, the winner of the last GSL and a player htat has been hanging at the top of the korean food chain for a very long time.

In a post talking to Playa, I mentioned that Elazer played well, even in the mirror matchup vs Dark.

Do I think he played top tier games? Absolutely.

Do I think his race carried him more than terran or protoss could have?Absolutely.

It was noticeable that he did beat players like Neeb doing GGlords and infestors. Its no secret that combination is borderline OP.

My point was that zerg seems to allow more mistakes, but allow for top tier mastery, more so than terran or protoss.

[Velitey19-1665]

If the Terrans were playing ln Elazer’s level, yeah… they weren’t.

Neeb was basically there until he fell asleep at his keyboard.