If we have a broodwar commander in coop would they be op?

General differences:
_ broodwar commander harvest 8 min / gas per trip
_ unit, research, and upgrade take longer to complete (around twice the time in sc2)

_ stim pack +100% spd
_ rines, firebats, tank, goliath, wraith, bc less health
_ missile turret and bunker -50 health
_ yamato does 260
_ BC attacks once every 1.875s. Do 25.
_ siege tank, firebat, medic, ghost cost less supply and resources
_ science vessel’s EMP remove all shield and energy in a big area
_ nuke does 500 dmg or 2/3 of the enemy max health which ever larger. In short, 2 nukes will demolish any unit regardless of health. Nuke is much more expensive.
_ medic can removes all kind of debuff include stun and statis
_ ghost can lockdown mechanic units for 60s.

_ zealot 80 health and 80 shield
_ storm deals 112 damage
_ reaver 125 damage. Cost much less resource and supply.
_ carrier has 4 base armour but interceptors only do 6 dmg
_ scout is as expensive and durable as voidray but deal pitiful ground dmg.

_ hydra takes 50% less resource and supply to train. Only deal full 10 damage to big units (armoured and massive)
_ ling has a healthy dose of steroids for breakfast. Attack every half second. Can be upgraded to attack once every 0.31s
_ ultra cost less mineral and less supply
_ defiler dark swarm gives ground zerg 100% evasion (not affect splash damage or spell)
_ queen parasite instant kill non-mechanic units. Can affect heroic.
_ devourer slow enemy by 12.5% and make them take 1 extra damage per attack. Stack up to 9 times for 112.5% slow and +9 extra damage.

I don’t remember Brood War very well now. Thank you for the summary, though it’s a bit hard to get to grips with what some of it is relative to SC2! That’s my bad though.

Really, Co-op OP is about being able to fight losslessly without even needing an economy. The only real stand-out thing are – and this isn’t unique to SC1 – being able to freely produce nukes, since Amon can’t micro to deal with them.

Zerg would clearly have some crazy stuff (Defilers and Queens) but no huge freebie power like heroes and top bars would limit it somewhat.

Would love to see if Medics can undo Fear, Black Death, etc.

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Valkyries! I want their mommy voice back


That i agree. I think broodwar commanders will be similar to Zagara and Raynor being able to throw bodies at enemies thanks to their units’ cheap cost and their advanced harvesting abilities. I mean harvesting 8 mineral and 8 gas per trip is a huge eco boost.

I can see that. I was wondering about it. No sure if the army and eco boost can offset that weakness. Broodwar units from what i see are more dps dense and the army you command are also larger. Siege tank, reaver and hydra do almost similar damage but cost less supply. Instead of 2 siege tanks i can have 3 tanks, instead of 2 reavers i can get 3 and instead of 1 hydra i got 2.

The spells are also broken. If i recall correctly, DA is as fearsome as any other casters. They can mind control even heroes, and stun enemies in an area for 11s.
The early game will be rough and mutation would be unhealthy too.

I think they can. The ability in broodwar is programmed for vs use so they aren’t coded to deal with loopholes in custom or camapaign. Medic’s cure basically is a trigger spell that remove buffs. If mutators also use data debuffs (and not trigger-based), high chance is medic can cure them too. Making Terran able to deal with some annoying mutators.

I see so you are also a comrade of culture. :wink:

I miss my sunken colonies, they carried me through SC1 Zerg campaign. Zerglings were also extremely scary when massed with their upgrades in SC1.

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You’re confusing “parasite” (gain shared vision from targeted enemy unit) and “spawn broodling” (kill target and spawn 2 broodlings)

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They are replaced by Vikings.

So even though coop is pseudo lore, but how and who from broodwar would make sense? (Keep in mind using broodwar units, not someone like Narud/Duran.)

And would they be made cheaper? Cuz as their cost to DPS is concerned, they are far inferior.

Cost per dps, it’s a half-half story. Some have better ratio others have lower.

These units have less cost dps ratio
Ghost - half the damage but was compensated for strong anti-mechanic units spell
Goliath - its mineral cost is less in broodwar. Its ground attack has less damage than sc2 goliath. Its air attacks is debatable 2x10 vs 2x8 (+8 vs armoured).
Wraith - Its gas cost is 50% of broodwar. Its air attack in coop is worse than broodwar , 2x5 (+5vs armoured) compare to a solid 20 in broodwar.
BC - lower damage but higher spd makes better ratio. Its air dps is not very good though.
Dragoon - coop buffs them much so no argument
DT - 40-49 damage vs 45-60 damage. Not taking into account the Vorazun’s discount. Coop DT has much better ratio. Only good thing for broodwar DT is they can fuse to make Dark Archon.
Carrier - broodwar 6 damage. Coop 2x5 damage. Overall, higher dps for coop.
Corsair - coop corsair deals extra damage vs light. Broodwar corsair deals an universal damage of 5.
Scout - broodwar ground attack is terrible. They are also overly costly in broodwar. Their ratio in broodwar is through the toilet.
Hydra - kerrigan’s hydra has frenzy. Otherwise, broodwar hydra has greater ratio due to lower cost.
Ultra - 20-29 broodwar vs 35-47 (+cleave) coop. No question on this.
Guardian - unsure
Devourer - unsure

A general look.
Wraith, goliath are aa units. Their ground attack isn’t a strong point so we can forgive that.
Ghost is more spellcaster than fighter.
The rest has less ratio.

Individually they are weak.

then replace them with Valkyries for this commander, let’s’ say DuGalle

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So the point stands based on your reply, how would they scale properly. We also didn’t account for any in-game current buff. Examples being devour with biomass, Tanks with maelstrom rounds, etc. It’s not just their basic DPS to cost.

Broodwar units clearly need buff but how without compromising its broodwar-ness?

Broodwar army is not just the units itself. There are some aspects that can compensate for the mentioned weakness.

  1. I mentioned it’s a half-half story because there are units that has better ratio than sc2 units.
    Marine - his stimpack give 100% bonus speed while Raynor can only give at max 90% spd bonus from stimpack and his lvl 15.
    Firebat - cost less in broodwar and deal less damage than coop but its stimpack is also more potent.
    Siege tank - one of the most important anti ground Terran units. Have much better cost ratio than sc2 vs.
    Reaver - Cost in broodwar 200min & 100gas vs sc2 300 min & 200 gas. Meanwhile, have a strong attack 125 vs 115 coop.
    These units can partially offset the weakness of its other units.

  2. We can’t judge an army just using just individual stats, that’s just a part of the story. We need to see how they work together. That’s where Broodwar spells came into the rescue.
    Ghost - 60s lockdown on mechanical unit is a powerful tool and each ghost can use them twice before exhausting his energy.
    Science Vessel - EMP can remove shield and energy of an entire army if you place the shoot well.
    Nuke - each of them costs 200 min & 200 gas along with 8 supply. But 2 of them can kill any units without a problem. Even big hybrids with 2000 health will die in 2 hits. Assuming u place the nukes well, that’s 400 min and 400 gas to remove a large churn of a brutal attack wave.
    High Templar - its storm is 112 vs coop 80.
    Dark Archon - maelstrom can stun enemies for 11s. 11s area stun is nothing to scoff off. Mind control is even more terrible, it mind controls even heroic like hybrids.
    Arbiter - its spells offer great tactical value. Recall is something I wouldn’t need to explain. Statis, however, can combine with nuke to deal with an attack wave, assuming your partner play broodwar terran.
    Devourer - Every attack it slowed enemy down. The calculation is a little weird. Each attack added 12.5% to the enemy weapon cooldown. If enemy attack once every second, devourer will add 0.125s to that weapon cooldown. This stacks up to 9 times, an enemy with 1s wp cooldown becomes 2.125s. It’s one of the most powerful disable ability vs air. Each stack also give +1 bonus damage per attack receive, max at +9 bonus damage. The good thing is devourer can inflict this debuff in a group of air units because it’s attack is splash.
    Queen - spawn broodling can instantly kill even the hybrids. There doesn’t need to say anymore about this one.
    Defiler -Dark swarm gives 100% evasion to ground zerg. The only thing that can damage them is splash damage and spells. This effectively nullified a large portion of the attack wave damage.
    Infested Terran - 500 damage explosion is a good tool even if it can deal friendly damage.

  3. All of those are on top of the eco boost from Broodwar mechanic. Other commanders harvests 5 min and 4 gas per worker trip. Broodwar commander harvests 8 min and 8 gas. I assure you can see how large of an eco boost this thing is.

  4. The max army of broodwar is larger than coop. This is because many units in broodwar cost less supply.
    Firebat, ghost and medic - 1 supply vs 2 in coop
    siege tank 2 supply vs 3 in coop
    Reaver - 4 supply vs 6 in coop
    Hydralisk - 1 supply vs 2 in coop
    Ultra - 4 supply vs 6 in coop
    In term of max army, broodwar is undoubtedly has greater damage output

Some of the weaknesses of broodwar commanders would be the early game since they have yet to get to the spell caster tech and don’t have much resources. Even with the eco boost and cheaper units, they will still have to rely on allies and static defense.

Yeah. I miss those too. Their damage is just through the roof.

Yup, you’re correct. I made a mistake there.

I thought Viking replace Wraith?

Rather than Viking and lib. I rather have wraith and valk.

Wraith are still here. Valkyries only attack air in Blood War just like Vikings in air mode. They are upgrade to have ground mode in SC2.

Unfortunately that won’t happen. Developers are all gone in Blizzard.

First off, your commander needs to stick to one of the races. So you can’t compare a bundle of Terran, Zerg, and Protoss Broodwar units being “better cost to DPS”. Furthermore, the few examples you gave have clear and limited use (per race speaking).

Secondly, there is no economical benefit, Broodwar versus SC2 have different build times, movement speed, and game speeds. Your comparison of 8 versus 5 per trip is not a fair comparison. And clearly sc2 is faster… and that’s was intentionally by design.

Lastly, even after all that information, you really haven’t answered the core question. Who would be the Broodwar commander, what would he use, and more importantly how would it function in coop (while staying true to its Broodwar-ness)?

To give you an example, the most requested Broodwar era CO is likely DuGalle or similar, AKA Terran. As such:

  1. Marine vs Raynor Marine vs Nova Marines. At best you say it’s equal.
  2. Firebats have such limited use already and they don’t have the same bulk as Raynor’s FB.
  3. Medic while hosting more abilities don’t host better healing function compared to Raynor.
  4. Ghost are frail and costly, a single Lock-down does nothing in the face of a wave containing 20+ Mech enemies.
  5. All Mech: Vulture, Tank, Goliaths in Broodwar don’t function better than Raynor/Swann. Even if the cost is up to par, again at best it’s equal. And that’s a stretch.
  6. Same story really for Air Mech.

Note, not only is it repetitive in unit roster. There’s not clear strength over current iterations. Any changes to make them so may compromise its Broodwar-ness. Thus, it’s easy to say “let’s have Broodwar CO”, but the more important questions remain unaddressed.

My intention will be 3 commanders. Each represent one of the 3 in broodwar.

What they use is their respective broodwar army.
The Terran commander can use all Terran units in broodwar multiplayer.
The same for the Protoss commander and the Zerg Commander.

It is very hard to recreate another game experience in a different game with how limited coop is. To make broodwar units in coop, there are several aspects that must be sacrificed which are the assumptions I took to make this topic.

The bigger question is how much do you agree to compromise?

I don’t think there’s enough compromise to be given to make them work, personally speaking.

Fair view.
It’s a matter of personal preference then.

It definitely is a fair view considering nothing so far shows they can function in coop. It’s akin to people who wants just the “ladder COs” in coop. They don’t function, and that’s a very basic understanding of coop.

However, it’s not so much a preference as it is factual. Coop isn’t just a simple “let’s swap out Raynor to DuGalle, swap all bio to Broodwar bio, Mech/Air to Broodwar, and voila is it OP?” It has nothing to bridge even the first/second wave. Let alone enough Econ to back up an army for objectives.

It’s like asking will a regular bicyclist outperform in a nascar race? Like who, what, how? It doesn’t even make sense without OP (you) providing some premise (theoretically) to discuss. That’s why I keep asking you… hope this is as clear as it can be.

As it stands, it simply is just factually non-functional. Not a preference, just a statement of truth.

Even the most powerful function - Nuke. For Broodwar CO to produce, they’d have to go straight to Barracks -> Academy + Factory -> Starport -> Science Facility if I recall correctly. Research 2 x Nuke to deal the 100% HP Dmg. That’s if you can hold out until you tech there lol.

Does the Brood War commander get double as many Mineral Patches at their main?