How is 2200 mmr vs 2800 mmr balanced?

I suspect your opponent was in provisional state, where he in fact has two MMR. That happens when you play the first 25 games after a long break, and increases the MMR variations upon each victory/defeat by quite a lot. It’s also possible you were playing very late at night, where the players pool is reduced by a lot. :thinking:

That’s possible. It seems the amount of players start decreasing around silver 3 and below. However there are quantities of them in gold, so it seems strange for a silver 3 to be matched with a gold 1 (2.8K) if there isn’t some additional twist involved.

A quick league progression and spontaneous macro capabilities are better reflection of skill than just APM. Don’t forget that some races just induce higher APM, and that a lot of players just spam to increase it.

Actually there is more difference between a 2.2K and a 3.2K MMR player, than between a 5.0K and a 6.0K.

It happens that I’m currently surveying battlenet around silver. The APMs I’ve seen there so far were between 18 and 70, with some rare zergs sometimes reaching a bit more than 115.
In platinum (2840MMR to 3.2K) APM is frequently between 100 and 150, with some protoss around 65 and some zerg around 250 (not counting smurfs).
High APM doesn’t implies skill, but too low APM straight implies a lack in core mechanics, specially in Z and bio players.

A platinum could beat a silver by a large margin while offracing for the very first time (I remember having done so on a welcome match for one player of my clan, I wanted to do some kind of 2Gates poke to show him the meta but messed up the gaz income (first time playing protoss), so I ended up doing the poke with three zealots… and the worse is that he didn’t even react, so I circled his stalker with slowlots XD… and from there took the nexus. I don’t think that kind of misplay (bad opener, holed wall, absence of kiting, absence of workers pull) would be possible if matched against as low as a gold 3 player. :mag:

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I’m a big noob around 2600 mmr, increasing very slowly, it happened i had a series of bad games and i dropped to 2300 mmr and yes, there are differences. Main difference is that at that low level basically everyone try some cheese strategy, cannon rush if protoss, early spawning pool if zerg and proxy raxes if terran.
Every one
Luckily for me i went out in a few games from that hell.

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I started SC 2 late, and I never watched any videos/games, so I was ignorant enough that I started in Silver league. Absolutely the only thing I remember about my games/opponents before reaching Diamond league is… silver league Toss players were the only guys making void rays and they did so every game.

Basically, I’m the best silver league player ever. Feels good.

I can’t imagine there really being enough to take note of. A guy who decides to macro every minute as opposed to every two minutes, is basically what I envision. From the friends I’ve seen start SC 2, early on, they never attack. So, the higher you go up, perhaps more attacking you will see. Until a certain point, people are just 100% focused on their base and trying to simply make units.

5k-6k? You can’t be serious lol. That’s absolutely the biggest 1k difference. It’s literally the difference between a guy you’ve never heard of and never will and, say, “TLO.” Literally the difference between a casual player who plays every now and then for giggles and… a professional gamer who is treating the game as their job… Ofc that’s going to be where the real differences start to show up.

6k basically means figuring out/solving game. 5k means… “dude played thousands of games, so… he had no choice but to become 5k.”

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That gap is similar to low plat to d1 (not in terms of skill ofc) in the sense of visible skill gap.

You can see many mid-low GM players at 5,5k who knows the basics but still make a lot of mistakes.As you say, 6k is the starting point of the ‘‘high level’’, being 6300-6500 the starting low point of the highest level.6700-6800 where the good players are and 6800-7300 where the top players are.At higher levels even 500mmr is like two entire low leagues in terms of necessary skill to jump into the next step.

To be fair, it makes a big difference on what Grandmaster league you’re talking about. For instance, on NA… there’s only 15 people with 6k MMR or better (some prob cheat, too). There’s only 10 people with at least 6100. TLO is 6000…

So when you say 6k, for NA, you’re talking about THE BEST PLAYER on ladder, basically. When you say 5k NA… you’re talking about me playing like my 60th game ever with Zerg… who wonders what my hotkeys are for units and how creep spread works.

I think the difference is most notable with Zerg. It’s like playing vs an entirely different race, where as I’d probably struggle to tell the difference between a 4.6k Terran and Uthermal. I’m sure that’s on me, though. Toss players… they have far better micro than you will see below that level, usually.

Yes, not counting NA since there is almost no high rank players, Parting, Nina…anyone else?. Parting and maybe Nina can slay that ladder, but at the moment they loses to some bs all in he loses 50mmr points and many times he gets 0 points per win because he plays 5500mmr players.

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Not so much. That’s about it. Yeah, you can’t afford to lose to anyone on NA when your MMR gets higher. All risk no reward. Better play solid. I’m not sure what the MMR “inflation is” on EU. I haven’t played it enough, but I feel everyone gets at least a 200 MMR boost from simply playing on EU.

First I’d like to say that there is some passion in your words, and I respect that.

I began even lower than you, with probably not mechanical talent whatsoever. I’m still an intermediate level player right now. I like to think of myself as the more tactical type. Yet, with those impairments, and while I’m surveying leagues in the other directions due to my smurfs reports, I can realize looking at those players that there was indeed some path done.

Every player is different. Going from silver to platinum is going from everyone as a different improbable mix, to a beginning of correction of those differences into something coherent, a metagame, reactions and mechanics that make sense. Far from being mastered of course, but with enough insight to see the road.

You are right in the sense that it is a gap, a wall that requires something more, to be breached.

However, I believe you didn’t have too much occasions to look back. A silver 3 to a platinum 1 means to face off an opponent that will hit 2 or 3 bases saturation 5 minutes or more before you do, and likely have between two and three times more army value when the timing comes. There is a wall between 5K and 6K players, but if a 6K player consistently had three times the army value of the 5k one, it wouldn’t be a wall, it would be the Wall of China.

IMO, of course. :slightly_smiling_face:

Yea, that narrative stops working if one is skilled-enough to play KingCobra Style…
You still insist in the myth of “Macro” when the Trade-Ratio is 1:3 or 1:4…
It is so difficult to understand that if you Trade 300% better than your opponent, your 3 Bases count as…9 Bases of your Opponent?
So, go easy with macro, the Ultimate truth is …Macro+Trade-Ratio.

Please stop with these myths. I was going carrier, disruptor builds vs Terran and Zerg every game before this guy had even made a disruptor. News flash, I still do so. It’s like naming driving cars after kingcobra, since he might have a car.

I went from Silver to Diamond in two weeks (was busy at work, out of state). Masters within a month. Simply making units is the most cliche thing ever. It’s annoying and obnoxious sounding, but there’s a lot of truth to it…

A big thing is, just not being lazy. People want to take shortcuts. Ie., don’t want to hotkey any units. Don’t want to use camera hotkeys. They just want to show up and hope the SC 2 god graces them with victories. At some point, people who are lazy in these regards have to suffer the consequences/stagnate.

If I tried to play how “noobs” play, mechanics/fundamental wise, then I couldn’t win any games either. That’s even with having an idea of how to play.

There is no myth here…
KingCobra style is more than Carrier/Disruptor/Phoenix style. You still struggle to grasp the importance of SD and the importance of strategically placing SD+Buildings as well as the ratio of Army/SD at any given time.
Carrier/Disruptor in PvT fails miserably if no SD (Static Defense Batteries included) are not implemented properly.
I can link you a long 40 minute-game of KingCobra with HeroMarine (where HeroMarine managed to win due to BC)…
You link me a YOUR game with…Special where you survived more than 5 minutes…

I genuinely can’t tell if you guys are joking/being sarcastic or are a part of a sub 50 iq cult. It makes me feel bad, like I’m not getting the joke thus should be in the cult if it exists…

I’ve played Heromarine 1 time in my life, to my knowledge. I also have that game on my youtube… and he won with BCs… and I would have won if I simply didn’t gift him my third base. Had no business dying. I was far ahead, otherwise…

KingCobra hasn’t done a single thing in P vs T that I didn’t do before him. I mean, I used to play without warpgate all game. That’s impossible to do without making cannons everywhere.

I can link to games playing “kingcobra style” before dude made a disruptor. I was doing “maxpax” every game since 2013, lmao. I wrote a book and linked to fastest vessel build in 2012? Only build flash uses now. The way I play P vs P now and have for the past 3 years? Will become the meta if it already isn’t becoming so.

Yet these sub 50 iq guys or trolls want to talk about people having styles who are just doing styles I did before some even played SC 2. It’s kinda amazing that the light bulb never seems to go on. You can’t even say “playa style,” because… what build? Which of 1000 builds?

If you can name a style after someone, the fraud is already exposed lol. You guys seriously need to reevaluate these things you have “written in stone” that are flat out the R word.

Nerds were never popular in school… no one has ever cared, but now you guys act like “x nerd is popular so he created everything and is the shiz.” Yawn.

I see, you invented the wheel and the fire 7000 years ago and no one is crediting you with that…
80% of the Starcraft Luminaries just stole your ideas and failed to credit you…

Yeah. Fact.

I literally can back up all of my claims. Easy. No one has ever refuted them lol, because it’s not possible. All you can say is… “kingcobra is a snake man. Bruh he’s a freaking snake dawg. He’s the first king cobra.” Being stupid sounds like a lot of fun, find someone else to give that fun to.

I have no idea what is wrong with you guys. Think of all the things I’ve done before your so called heroes… yet I don’t even have a style. Been rated higher on GM, too. Hmm… Wonder what it could be. It’s a R word for sure, just gotta decide which one…

It’s really not rocket science though. People are sheep and I’ve never tried to be a big streamer/personality, and obviously having things named after yourself makes you seem cooler/innovative and maybe leads to more money? I don’t want to be friends with these guys, so not like they’re scratching my back. Just steal, steal, steal and lie. Welcome to life.

What’s sad is… I’ve given KingCobra more credit than pretty much anyone on the forum. It’s truly pathetic how scummy these guys are in comparison.

Link to my game vs heromarine. Playa (5800) vs HeroMarine (6700) - YouTube

This is the kinda stuff I’ve been doing since I started LotV… Even the “rotti build.” The robo + stargate before expand. That’s me, too… That’s really bad by the way.

It’s always humorous though when people worship the most normal people in the world for being innovative/different. It’s like, really… do they sound different? Any diff hobbies? Anything interesting whatsoever? No, but they created this and that!? It’s funny how gullible people are.

This no warpgate P vs T is really bad, too. I tried for eons to get it to work, but… newsflash… if you have a big bank it doesn’t really matter unless you’re able to reinforce battles on the spot. Otherwise, better units winout/trade out and all you can talk about is “bruh… you should have seen me lose to x… it was quite the feat. I lasted 6 minutes!” Cool stories indeed.

The main issue is that there were probably a lot of players doing builds like MaxPax and so on.

I bet many players in platinum and diamond were even doing it before it “became a thing”.

Just because you used it, doesn’t mean you were the inventor, nor does it mean you deserve the credit. In reality, there are probably tons of players using innovative builds as we speak, but just rarely do any players do it “well”.

Maxpax did his build well, and another ex-pro player made it famous (beasty), so multiple steps were at play for him to get credit for a build platinum players were probably using for years.

Hardly anyone “invents” a build, and then gets credit for it.

The more likely scenario is that there are some platinum, diamonds, masters, and GM players already using the next innovative build, but only when a pro player utilizes said build will it garner real attention, which then that pro players gets credit for it.

Do I believe you used MaxPax build before it was famous? Yes.
Do I also believe there were diamond players using it before it was famous? Yes.

Build “inventors” don’t really exist.

The problem is, this is “who I am.” It’s hard to make a big deal about who you are. Part of being different is not really caring about others, given the norm. Like I come up with new stuff because I don’t value anything you guys do/say, thus why would I copy any of you?

Sure, it sounds arrogant, but I just approached the game like a scientist. I never wanted to be the best player or anything like that. Just a guy who is “curious about reality.” Trying to figure out optimal styles that are indifferent.

I did create the maxpax style. Not some bronze guy, not some plat guy. It was me. Period. There’s a reason no one else has ever suggested they came up with it, and it was so fresh/unique to some GMs even 5 years later. That says it all, really.

I started doing this in 2013, every game. Took me a year or so before I fully realized how to optimally do it (how many units do I make at the proxy, what follow up, etc, etc). Then, I became top 10 GM and I hadn’t even walled off versus Zerg before then.

2013 is HotS. Before 2013… you were playing WoL. There were too many 4 player maps and there wasn’t a mothership core or a shield battery. That’s why I know I came up with it first… It wasn’t even possible before then… I also wrote about it in a book in 2014’ish? I obviously didn’t call it the maxpax since that was like before the guy even started playing.

I did this strat to counter proxy factories, originally. You’re not supposed to hide the gateway. The actual “genius” of the build is NOT HIDING YOUR GATEWAY. So, it’s beyond amusing to me that you guys still consider it genius when it doesn’t even have the actual smart part involved. You can’t have indifference if you hide the gateway (need to be able to see if you’re getting proxied yourself, so you don’t lose). Given a proxy gateway = all-in in people’s mind then, people would overdefend, so there was no reason to hide the gateway.

As for KingCobra, I dunno. The build really isn’t good enough to care. I just think it’s f’ing stupid. People literally try to claim the guy is an innovator cause they think he makes more cannons than me. You can’t make this stuff up. I tried everything. I’m years ahead of people who started doing it years behind me. It’s just so mind numbing to me. I tell people what he does different and what’s interesting, and people don’t even care. It’s not interesting to them. That stuff is stupid to them, thus… well there you go, they said it… It’s stupid to make a scene about kingcobra. Sorry.

I wish people would talk about my P vs P build before “kingcobra” does it in 5 years and I have to hear about how it’s so much better/innovative since he makes two cannons instead of 1 cannon because he doesn’t know how to properly wall off a cannon, thus has to play sub optimally, which is turned into a positive because people are too noob/dumb to realize they’re just glorifying lesser things that came later for, well, stupid reasons.

Build inventors exist because I’m still breathing. The problem is society is very arbitrary. If it didn’t happen on TV, it’s not real, so if you’re not “marketing,” you’re not allowed to have any attributions. Just how the world is. I’m curious if anyone will ever grow up/mature to this reality.

I’ve been playing MLB the Show 20. That game interests me more. I actually respect the players/figures I see on youtube. Too ignorant to know better, I guess. At the end of the day, if a strategy isn’t pro level, it’s just a marketing game of who cares really. I think my P vs P build is meta level, though.

I once saw a top plat player doing a pvp troll build and I thought, damn, that build is interesting, it was 2 inmo full gladept push.Copied it and had pretty good results with it but since it was all in, I stopped doing it, and then some day I saw a tournament game,casters were amazed and hyped by a similar and more refined new strat, I think it was on gsl and saw some more games with that kind of attack later, and all I was thinking was that it was a plat push.

At some point, there is an inventor, but it’s hard to know who was the first, some player can play a build, and the rival can refine it and create a build based on what he saw, so not really a new build from scratch. That happened with the famoush spanishiwa build, he wasn’t the inventor, he knew someone who just played on a weir way and made many queens when the meta was just 1 queen per hatch, then stephano copied and started a more refined queen opener who lead to his famous roach build that was also not from stephano but he refined and popularized it.

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I can think of around half a dozen times when I came up with a novel new strategy only to see it played in gsl a few months or weeks later. When many people work on the same problem independently you’re bound to have multiple people coming up with the same solution. Thinking that it was somehow your play alone that permeated the meta and changed the game is comically egotistical.

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Your ego would have been more well-placed into a SoS, MVP or Life…
I doubt that even the Legends of Starcraft try to take credit for 30% of build-orders and strategies, and you are offended that no one credit you with 90% of everything Starcraft.
Proportions, Playa, proportions.

+1000000000000000000000000000000

It’s not about ego. It’s about facts. Something that nerds hate. They only care about fantasy and trying to spin things to fit some completely stupid narrative that rewards/props up their “chosen ones.”

Just take this for example. I started out playing standard and copying the meta, just like you guys. I didn’t stray far from what I was “supposed to do.” I reached WCG level, as Terran (Idra, Nyoken, Artosis, etc.), that way. Then, I realized just how many problems there were with meta builds, and via trying to solve things… my play had to adapt out of necessity. Remained WCG level.

The build flash does every game in T vs Z now? I tried to coach that build eons ago and wrote about it, in a book, eons ago. The reception? That build is too weird/gimmicky, there’s no point in learning it. And no one wants to learn from someone who can’t play standard. 100%, across the board.

Even with hindsight being 20/20, you guys still find a way to ignore how moronic it shows you. That’s the real genius.

Since I largely kept my mouth shut for years… I had people on here trying to teach me the maxpax build, saying it would solve all my woes. Talking about how it’s the best thing ever. It’s literally the first build I did in my first LotV game, yet… all of the sudden, “oh playa, a bronze guy did it.” It’s truly sad how pathetic the human race is. No one deserves to have an ego, as long as they share the same species. Trust me, that fact will always keep me in check if I were to even think of having an ego.

For a long time, I didn’t even really talk about kingcobra, cause I didn’t even know who he was. I just had some impression maybe that the guy was going carrier, disruptor. I looked at his youtube. He has vods from 2017, even… I looked at my sc charts. It’s so beyond moronic to act like this guy has more name rights to that style than I would. It’s so stupid having to hear about it.

What is the criteria you guys have for naming builds/styles after people, anyways? Just make sure their name isn’t Playa? Really, that’s the only checklist. This isn’t how the world works. You know, like the simple act of writing something already gives you creative copyrights. You can’t just name every business Pizza Hut cause “well I like pizza hut.”

This is why I’ve grown such a hatred for nerds. They have zero respect for the truth or sense. Completely illogical beings lost in fantasy land. They don’t care who hacks/cheats/kills w/e, as long as they appear to be “nice.” Did he have a nice persona on stream or not?

It’s like talking to 2 year olds that are defective on top of it. You can’t accomplish anything. You can’t reason with people who are the antithesis of reason.

How should I act? Kingcobra is the best dawg. He’s so creative. You know what dawg… I loved him so much that in 2040 I decided to go back to 2016 and play exactly like him. The same with maxpax dawg. Yeah man, they innovated the game. Only reason I was playing like that before them was time travel. You hear that nerds. Time travel. Playa the time traveler. You nerds going to be able to time travel in the future, like me.

I apologize for time traveling. Won’t happen again. Well, except the p vs p build… Guess there’s no other matchups I play.

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