Ghosts should be considered Light units

General Discussion
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Both similar casters from Protoss and Zerg have either a Light or Armored tag (as do the vast majority of units in the game.) There’s no real reason Ghosts should be an exception, as they clearly don’t have any more armor on their unit than say, Marines, which are also Light.

More relevantly from a gameplay perspective, Ghosts currently dominate pretty hard in the late game of both TvZ and TvP and could probably use a slight change. Ghosts already are the best caster out of the 3 (compared to High Templar and Infestors.) They have the highest HP, the fastest move speed (by quite a bit), can actually attack quite well, and arguably even have the best abilities (Steady Targeting countering literally every late game unit in TvZ and EMP doing thousands of instant AoE damage to late game TvP deathballs while shutting down enemy casters.) Giving Ghosts a proper Light or Armored tag would only be a very small nerf, but would at least make them a tiny bit more vulnerable to the few units that should counter them.

9 Likes
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What’s a unit that’s currently supposed to counter ghosts and has anti-light bonus damage?

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Bear in mind that ghost is the only terran unit without light/armored tag. Protoss only has archons. And zerg actually has three non light/armored units: queen, baneling, ravager. If you want to give ghosts a tag, consider doing the same to all those above units.

6 Likes
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Banelings & ravs should probably have a tag I would agree. If you give queen a tag though zerg is boned. Play any modded game of sc2 where they give queen an armored tag and they get melted. Then zerg is just screwed.

Archons I guess you could give a tag but idk what you would give it. Neither light nor armored makes any sense for them.

But ghosts not having a tag makes pretty much no sense tbh. I get your point though.

3 Likes
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Banes only 30 hp giving light tag would be instant detention. They would be countered by hellions.

Banes don’t need tag because they got low hp. Infestor don’t need tag they about useless especially don’t need armored tag.

Ghost needs major nerf giving light tag only change for banelings instead 5 it goes to 4.

So in regards this not where nerf be applied, snipe should be 75 energy, emp 75. This only make ghost less effective but still make efficient against Zerg.

1 Like
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So snipe shots should be some what balanced on your pop.

Killing Ultras should take enough energy to kill of equal it’s pop. Since ultras is 6 pop then should be 6 pop of ghost full energy. Anything outside of that is unbalance.

What if one unit can instantly destroy battle cruiser. Most units of 2 pop so single corrupter destroy battle cruiser.

So best balance be make ghost 3 pop and make it 75. This would be balance since ghost would hard counter pop but be out energy.

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Conceptually I guess it would punish terrans more for having ghosts scattered in their bio ball when its under attack by colossi, but thats about all I got.

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It would make them more vulnerable to Banelings in TvZ and Collossi in TvP.

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I mean yeah, on a technical level it would make them more vulnerable to everything with bonus damage vs light. Its just I dont think anybody actually uses those units against ghosts.

Now maybe this would cause a massive meta shift where banelings are suddenly the answer to enemy ghosts, but I personally kind of doubt that.

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??? ling/bane is already the answer to ghost… bane kills marine/hellbat and tanks ghost fire while preventing effective kiting vs lings by forcing splits or pickup. If zerg didn’t include banes vs ghosts terran could just hold position 4 ghosts with medivac in a choke and hold absurd numbers of lings. In fact banes currently trade cost effective vs ghosts so long as each bane hits at least 2 ghost, but again the bane’s primary purpose is not even damage but to tank for lings and force splits so lings can get complete surrounds.

All this to say it would probably be an overnerf vs zerg.

It is always funny to see suggestions about giving zerg more tags while archon enjoys bonus vs every zerg unit for bio tag, ghost can snipe every zerg unit for same reason, and infestor is armoured with 0 armour. Moreover those zerg units you mentioned are all core to zerg gameplay in all 3 MU’s, while ghost/archon aren’t.

1 Like
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There doesn’t really seem to be any true answer to Ghost + Thor + Hellbat in late game TvZ, Ling/Bane is used but it’s not a true counter. Terran can already soak banelings very effectively with Thors or Marauders, so there’s no reason that Ghosts should be able to facetank Banelings as well instead of being vulnerable when caught out of position like casters from the other races (especially given they have cloak, more health, and are faster than the other casters.)

In late game TvP Colossi aren’t quite as popular, but it would be a good way to make them a bit stronger option.

4 Likes
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Incorrect. Queens (175), Vipers (150) and Oracles (160) are all casters, and have at least +50% HP compared to the ghost ; not to mention one armor point for the two first… and no armor tag for the very first.

Wrong again. The Oracle (5.6), the Viper (4.5) and the Raven are all faster than the ghost (3.94), not to mention their aerial nature provide them with even superior mobility.

The units who don’t have either the light or armored tag are meant to perform just the same in terms of resistance whatever the opposing units. Queens being on the tougher side of them all, but indeed requiring that (and transfuses !) in order for them to provide an anchor to Z’s defense.

Yet that’s also true for all the others :

  • Make banes light, and they will simply get one shot by hellbats; making the hellbat thor a nearly invincible amove wherease banelings currently counter the first part.
  • Make ravagers armored and they’ll destroyed by tanks without being able to land their biles.
  • Make archons light and it’s the end of the zealot archon composition against lings banes.
  • Make ghost light, and they won’t be able to risk a steady targeting nor an EMP without then dying to banes or colossi ; making them essentially 150M 125G disposable non lethal banes in TvP…

Truth is :

  • the ghost’s HP (100) are average for a caster (HT, sentry and infestor have less ; queens, vipers, raven and oracles feature more). And rather low compared to non caster units, even just tier one (marauder & ravager 120, roach 160, stalker 160…) and most particularly for lategame units (ultralisk 500, BC 550, and carrier 450).
  • all units without light/armored tag were purposefully made so in order to better fulfill their role. Wanna give tags to all ? Zerg wouldn’t survive past midgame, which would be full hellions/bats thor in ZvT.
  • Ghost is a powerful caster alright. His might as a unit might not apply in every matchup (it’s horrible against most mechanical units, hence why rare in TvT), but steady targetting was purposefully designed in order to 3 shots ultralisks, and EMP was purposefully designed in order to be the best anti-caster around. Now it’s a powerful caster, but in two match-ups.
    There are even more powerful casters, whose might does apply in all three match-ups… such as the Viper (arguably being the most powerful of all casters).

I know you said that jokingly, but your theoretical knowledge about the game seems to be lacking. There is a 2 pop unit that can actually one shot a battlecruiser.

Give up ?

It’s the infestor. Neural → make the BCs yamato themselves, and then TP what remains over some spores, or your army. The moment the neural connects, any unsupported BC is instantly lost.

Is that powerful ? Yes. Even more than steady targeting (the unit gets under your control, and contrary to steady targeting just any damage won’t cancel the channeling). Should we whine about it ? No. Same than steady targeting.

Are people asking for the Viper to get half HP, +50% supplies cost, and +50% energy cost for blinding cloud and abduct ? No.
Can the viper’s spells get interrupted by simple lings & banes ? No.
Can the ghost refuel energy on buildings ? No.
Can the infestor also move undetected ? Yes.

TvZ is currently oscillating between 49% and 51% over the last 3 months. That makes it one of the most balanced match-up around (not to mention on of the most popular and spectacular). So really, don’t go complain about the ghost’s absence of tags when your race has the most tagless units of all, and don’t complain about the EMP and steady targeting when you’ve got the blinding cloud, neural and abduct. :neutral_face:

1 Like
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I think he’s talking about the brovager, BRO

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They should give ravagers an armor tag and give them more HP, so they get a nerf and a buff.

Roaches need to learn how to evolve better, the ravager ability doesnt quite make up for it outside of a few situations that doesnt happen every time and then later in the game they are useless.

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That’s not going to happen in practice due to the high movement speed of ghosts and Terran’s host of anti-ground units which utterly obliterate banelings (tanks, liberators, even planetaries). Dark tried exactly that and made an absolutely absurd number of banelings, but still couldn’t get Maru’s ghosts. I don’t think banelings are an effective counter to ghosts.

A good way to reduce their late game efficiency is to remove the ability to rapid fire snipe. That would take care of the issue because it would reduce the efficiency of snipes by 25% or so since people can’t click as fast as they can rapid fire.

3 Likes
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So :

  1. Banelings wouldn’t counter ghosts anymore
  2. What would be effective would be hindering their steady targeting capability
  3. Dark used banes against Maru
  4. Dark won

Quite the mystery here. If one didn’t know better, one could think that, somehow banes could hinder ghosts’ steady targeting and that Dark knew it. :thinking:

Anyhow, some dudes seem quite eager to see the ghost nerfed, whereas (or because ? :thinking: ) it’s the main TvZ and TvP bio lategame tool. While unecessary, this could be done… as long as the viper and the hightemplar get nerfed in similar proportions.
Seems less appealing all of a sudden, isn’t it ? :stuck_out_tongue:

I noticed, DUDE. DUly edited my post about the same time than your message.

3 Likes
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but it is true:
in the parenthesis it says “comparison” and then it explicitly lists HT, Infestor.
Ghost - - >speed: 3.94 Hp: 100
Infestor ->speed: 3.15 Hp 90
HT - - - - ->speed: 2.62 Hp:40/40

Speed: Ghost > Infestor > Ht
Hp: Ghost > Infestor > Ht

With this statement you show that your knowledge is lacking.
you can’t point yamato at yourself.
it is also true that infestor cannot build spore or drones.
btw at least 4+ spore, because with 1 spore bc just flies away.
the same goes for “TP over your army”… this shows that infestor itself can’t one shot Bc.

again knowledge is lacking, banlinge don’t have the speed to interrupt snip. think zerg only range tool is fungal.

Ht/ infesor/ queen/ oracles / sentry/raven -not either.

that’s what will be criticized, that ghosts are too universal. especially in the TvZ-turtle style that is becoming more and more popular.

in your text you make random comparisons of different properties of casters. yes | no | maybe | i don’t know…

but don’t you see that ghost is the only caster that is also an ok to solid combat unit.
Then ghost is also a caster that is anti-caster at the same time.
so i find the role or identity of ghost very strange.

3 Likes
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:neutral_face:
Okay, then. Then it’s true that if we only compare it to two two of the slowest and most fragile casters of the game, the ghost is the fastest and toughest of those three.
But then, is the game limited to only ghost, HT and infestor ? Are there only 3 spellcasters in SC2 ? If not, how then is it relevant to the balance of the game as a whole ? :grey_question:

If as if I compared the corruptor to the viking and the voidray. Corruptor’s speed is the highest of the three. Corruptor’s HP is the highest of the three. I would then suggest the corruptor needs to be nerfed, while deliberately avoiding to include phoenixes, carriers, Tempests and BCs in the comparison.

That’s either ignorance, or a deliberate omission. You choose. Either way that’s a selection bias.

You didn’t know ?

One spore here.
And I said “spores”, in English the “s” implies a plural. Depends on how badly bruised/numerous the battlecruisers end-up obviously.

Knowledge and grammar.
You don’t necessarily need a ranged unit to hit the ghost if the snipe’s target is behind enough from your front, and the melee units fast enough.

They are so universal you see them only in two match-ups.

Vipers are used in all three match-ups however. Is that “universal” enough to you ? Should you whine about them instead ? :roll_eyes:

It might seem strange indeed, but maybe the topic is about the balance among the different casters of the game.
yes | no | maybe | i don’t know…

It’s the caster that’s the best at countering other casters ; HT coming as a close second. Same than the Viper being the best at countering costly units, and the HT being the best at slaughtering packed low health units. All of them are different, yet overall, at least regarding TvZ, Aligulac’s winrate oscilating between 49 and 51% suggest that Zergs’ and Terrans’ strengths and weaknesses get matched fairly well.

So why then are you supporting whining, Hallo ? Will complaining about the other races strengths help improve at the game ? Specially when the race of the whiner has 3x more units without light/armored tags than the other two ? :neutral_face:

3 Likes
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What are you talking about? Banelings don’t counter the Ghost as-is, and removing rapid-fire on Snipe would not change that relationship. The issue with the Ghost is that if you come within a certain range, it is guaranteed to kill your units even if they are the biggest, tankiest, most expensive units in the game. It does this for a mere energy cost. There is no way to dodge or mitigate this. It’s not like splash. You can’t micro against it. It’s “true or false, did you come within sniping range?” and “if true, your units are dead”.

Do you remember the days when people were losing their minds that fungal could kill 300 minerals in marines? Snipe is that on steroids. At least a fungal had a chance of being missed/dodged.

Allow burrow to dodge snipe (even with a scan) and now there is a viable counter-play and micro-interactions that create interesting game-play dynamics. Remove the ability to rapid fire and it gives slightly more time to transfuse, allowing counter-micro. Etc. “One click delete all units with no counter micro for energy cost only” is so insane it’s like Avilo and Nathanias and Artosis got together for a “Whine-Terran Conference” and designed it.

Another option is to remove the lock feature. You cast Snipe at a location, not a unit. Then, it can be dodged by moving the unit.

3 Likes
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Maybe the devs could implement some kind of channeling delay (let’s say 1.43s for example), during which the snipe would be cancelled if the ghost was hit ?

If you look carefully, the two ghosts on the bottom do channel the snipe, yet do not fire (contrary to some on the top), and their energy bar gets partly replenished. :mag_right:

I even suspect this changes were live ! :stuck_out_tongue:

Humor aside, I believe you know this full well. Didn’t you play as a terran some months ago ? Never had your snipes interrupted as above ? :slight_smile:

PS : Epic game from Clem and Serral btw. I recommend watching from the start to those who haven’t. :partying_face: