Agree. --------------
90% of the problem here is that Swann has been repeatedly powercrept into the dirt, is still an incredibly clunky commander with start-of-coop sensibilities, and got almost nothing from his rework compared to the INSANE boosts that Kerrigan, Raynor, etc. got from theirs - but because he has 1 abusive comp that takes a bunch of micro you have the forum big brains saying he’s amazing.
Seriously though, even with being able to drop 2 bunkers at the start with mastery, Mengsk is still a ways behind some of the really over powered commanders and most of what he does can still be crippled or countered by various enemy comps. Swann is just playing in the kiddie pool with most of his once-great traits no longer meaning anything. Not Mengsk’s fault, it’s Blizzard’s for leaving Swann behind.
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If you sacrifice chrono mastery, which means you saturate way slower, and of course mengsk gets effectively 100% chrono on his CCs. Also, Mengsk can power build his whole tech tree faster than Fenix can build any 1 tech building.
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Extra starting mandate is borderline OP. That’s 2 free supply bunkers and 12 workers, which equates to 680 minerals worth of stuff you can get immediately (200 + 12x40 if my math is right). That is A LOT of resources in the early game. That is not even factoring the fast expand to ramp up income faster, which has exponential benefits.
I am getting a vibe that most of people who whine vs Mengsk are those that do not own Mengsk.
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I own Mengsk and I actually love his build variety other than Vikings being pointless outside of AA: I just think he’s absurdly overpowered.
Because dying to so many things so easily makes one “overpowered.”
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Get out of Brutal and play something harder. Brutation or Brutal+. Don’t play on Brutal and say he is Overpowered. Everything is Overpowered in Brutal, lol.
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Welp, same could be said to a Dehaka, he doesn’t really fast expand, but half of the map is clean by the time I make a good army, as far as hard, Brutal maps goes.
Still, I can take a nerf for Mengsk, like making only 1 bunker available while everything else on cooldown, but Swann is still gonna be slower than Mengsk regardless, but there are things to point out cuz Swann is NOT in a dark corner:
-Swann is one of the best partners for Mengsk, competing with Artanis even, Mengsk can get Royal Guards or Artillery much earlier with him around, in a nutshell, Mengsk is gas-starved while Swann is mineral-starved.
-Contaminated strike provides vision for quite a while and can be used anywhere, opening for Lazer shenanigans.
-Enemy air comp is ez comp in more ways than one.
-Swann barelly needs engi bay as Mengsk does a lot of static around the map even when the focus is massing army, often leading to more minerals to supply if you aren’t fond of agressive turrets.
What bothers me a bit, is not helping with clearing ally’s expo when playing as Mengsk. No need to do at contested maps or well…fast expo rivals(Zeratul, Karax, Alarak), but you can afford using 4-6 of your troopers to ally’s expo after you’re done with your own.
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Mutations are conceptually flawed, and shouldn’t be what the game is balanced around.
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And that where you are wrong. Your conception of strategy is everything should work vs Amon with enough “skill”. That is not a strategy game, that is an action game.
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There should be strengths and weaknesses to different builds and some need to adapt not an “Oh, X map/mutation, guess I have to do Y.”
Ideally players would build around supporting their ally covering each other’s weaknesses whether that means holding in the early game while a late-game ally builds up or trying to handle a certain enemy type.
You just describe how strategy game works, congrats. (Same as when you don’t build 20 Zerglings vs 20 Zealots)
And this, you describe how coop work, congrats.
Now, what is your point?
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Better design allows for more answers to a problem instead of a set in stone meta dance.
Building around your ally is very different from building around a mutation: much less restricting for starters.
That how Brutal work except everything is a “set in stone meta dance” as you mention.
In Brutal+, you have to choose which one fit the bill instead of blindly pick one of those “meta” and steamrolling.
First of all: Brutal or Brutal+ is not for a beginner (or starter for that matter). If it is, then there is a problem with the game design itself.
Second of all: Building around your ally to win the game is not a strategy. it is merely “Coop”. To make it a “Coop strategy”, It needs to be “Building with your Ally optimally against a set of threat(Be it enemy comp, objective or mutation) to win the game.”
I’m not sure you understood the meta dance point: I was criticizing design that forces players to pick a specific strategy.
You can have hard gameplay without that. Heck, it could be interesting if the conditions of the map changed partway so that what was once optimal now isn’t.
The existence of a clear optimal strategy makes things easier and more boring.
We both agree that Brutal shouldn’t be for beginners. And yes, building to cover an ally’s weaknesses or use a unique combined strength is strategy.
Isn’t it how you don’t build 20 Zerglings vs 20 Zealots? if you are criticizing about that, then you are being unreasonable as this is the essence of strategy game: building optimally vs the threat.
That what “random mutation” is.
There is no clear optimal strategy in Brutal+, even the all mighty Zeratul cannon can be not so optimal against “steal building” mutation.
if anything, you are arguing against yourself since Brutal is the only place where “Optimal strategy” exists.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I love Mengsk. Mengsk is great. But he also seems to break a few rules, and those rules he breaks are where he has his most contentious power level problems.
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It’s more about not needing to build a specific comp against a specific scenario - having more right answers doesn’t mean there are no wrong answers.
Those condition changes would be preferable without so much mechanical swing - it could be as simple as mixing in another wave type for the enemy.
By optimal strategy, I was referring to the individual mutations that show up for whatever specific commander.
The thing about Mengsk is that his army lost hard on Brutal+ when mutators kick in. His army that die to everything now die harder…
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