Heh, I have yet to see MULES + Stetmann’s blue/F.A.S.T. zone!
Yeah, I’m not sure it’s cheaper for medics (given the resource it cuts into). Though their big +++ is definitely the mastery damage reduction. Thanks for refreshing the memba berries though 
It happens all the time. And I think due to its movement speed increase, you can get that last unload (if not +2 extra, doubt it). I’ve never paid attention exactly. They have same speed as SCV though (just longer excavating time for bigger unload).
I guess it depends on damage taken, since it takes 1/4 the cost of a BC to repair from 1 hp. Willing to guess overall it’s cheaper though.
Though I also never see P3 Raynors dropping Mules when maxed out, either. Heh.
Haha, you will if you play with me.
If I recall back when I dived into this issue, it was (as always) quite contentious. And many die hard defended medics.
Memba berries are hazy but what I recall (as I use SCV and MULEs) is that not only are they cheaper but more importantly they repair faster.
Yeah, just checked on wiki. Looks like the following:
- Medic: Heals at 3HP/s for 3 energy (+1 target with research and mastery at nearly same rate).
- Gain + 25% damage reduction on these 2 units.
- Only one healed beam per target (if I recall correctly, as in no multi heal beams for obvious reasons).
- Cost: 75/50 (we can ignore the obvious energy drawback).
- SCV/MULE repair at the rate of production time (if from 1HP to full). And time is proportional to missing HP, as in 50% HP to full would be 1/2 time production.
- Cost is always 25% of unit cost regardless of number of SCVs.
- Time is inversely proportional to number of SCVs, as in we can do multiple SCV/MULE and get faster repair.
- At 400/300 45sec, it cost 1 SCV 100/75 and 45sec to repair a BC at 1HP to full. At a minimum rate of 550 / 45 = ~12HP/s. Up to ~16HP/s for the same SCV with level 3 armor bonuses.
* At P3’s cost of 600/168, the cost is 150/42 with rest same.
So for the medic, the only real benefit is the 25% damage reduction. As the 75/50 cost is hardly different than 100/75 (considering no BC is ever revived from 1HP). Meanwhile, the cost of Medic is very real and up front.
In terms of its healing, at 3HP/s, it would take that one Medic 550 / 3 = ~180sec to heal that BC up. And if the energy drain is accurate, 180sec would take 540 (almost the HP of BC) worth of energy, which a single Medic wouldn’t have.
Overall, definitely a far cry and inefficient to use Medics. Mostly my issue with it is who can afford to wait 3min to heal up haha. 
God, every time details are shared, the post gets way too long. MB.
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Have no idea tbh, but Medics were really sweet and I was surprised as I forgot they can heal mechanical units.
Medics can be air dropped onto BCs, Medics can heal more targets at once, Medics have more life, Medics decrease damage taken, Medics can heal each other.
Particularly that damage reduction was really popping off against Double Edged.
Stabilizer Medpacks: Increases the Medic’s healing speed to 12 life per 3 energy per second and allows them to heal mechanical units. Units being healed by Medics take 25% less damage.
Since when you can’t drop MULEs, or was there some assumption to drop SCVs lol.
Healing 2 BCs at 3HP/s is at best 6HP/s of heal… if you read the details I posted, then a single MULE would do the job at 2x the speed.
And MULEs can’t? Any time they heal each other, which is often is actually a problem.
I doubt that, double edge heals itself over time. The problem is usually units aren’t healing. BCs spray low damage with high rate, the damage reduction is negligible.
While this is true, it is also misleading. It increases the rate by 25%. That means it’s 4HP/s rather than 3HP/s, both per 1 energy. So yes, 12HP/3energy but that is also no different than 480HP/120energy, but that’s not really useful…
Not knocking on you for using Medics. Just refreshing my own memory that MULE/SCV is far better.
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Though we really should pull back the derailing soon, I figured I’d lay some quick stats down.
At 0/0, a Medic will take max 45.75 seconds* to heal a BC (at 1 of 550 hp)
At #/3 ship upgrades, a Medic will take max 59.5 seconds* to heal (at 1 of 715 hp)
An SCV/Mule will take ~43 seconds, and will cost 100/60 for P0 and 150/42 for P3. A Medic costs 75/50 P0, and 113/50 P3.
I just thought numbers were marginally interesting, heh
[*assuming enough energy]
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It might be. I obviously always use MULE with P3. Except for Double Edged from now on, which we are specifically talking about. My army was noticeably less affected by the mutator. This was especially helpful for first 12-15 mins when you are still massing your death ball and upgrades, and when you rather need MULEs for mining.
Hmm, perhaps the medic heals at a rate of 12HP/3energy/1sec? I’d have to check in-game (as the wiki isn’t always accurate, this I know lol).
Either way, nothing off anyone’s back to use either.
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At the very least, the old liquipedia guide says 12hps with stabilizer. Not sure of the consumption rate though.
I tested it in-game, and I was pleasantly surprised to be wrong (in fact, by quite the margin). Here’s the results:
On MM’s RtK Protoss, I set it all up. 2 x BC with 0 upgrades at 550 max HP, both drained down to 4 HP (without me accidentally killing it). 1 x Medic with Stabilizer (as otherwise you can’t heal mechs at all). And 1 x SCV (MULE tested to be same rate of repair).
SCV/MULE x 1:
- 18:30 to 20:00, 44910/48827 to 44761/48685 min/gas
- 90sec and 142/42 min/gas, to repair from 4HP to full
- Far cry from what was assumed based on (essentially ladder repair rates) liquipedia. As the production time of BC for Raynor P3 is actually 43sec, this is essentially 2x that time with a single SCV/MULE.
Repair rate actual 6HP/s (ironically the previously mentioned medic rate ish haha), with the cost remaining accurate at 25%
Medic:
- 21:31 to 22:17, 200 to 89 energy
- 46sec and 111energy, to do the same
Repair rate actual 11.9 HP/s (or really the 12 as suggested on wiki) at ~2.4 energy/s
This is why it’s always great to double check, I am always happy to learn something. Thanks to both of you. And this explains why Medic’s heal works against Double Edge, as the Double Edge own heal is 8HP/s + Medic’s 12HP/s, you can mitigate up to 20DPS. BC’s DPS roughly sits at 30 DPS, which is why the sustain is so notable.
One thing I regret is not testing more than 1 SCV/MULE (for the cost portion) although I can’t imagine that is changed for any reason. It would have also confirmed the inverse proportional rate on time taken, of course, but the shock of how slow a single one does it was enough. It would cost 2x MULE to reach a relative rate of repair to keep up with a single Medic (not bad in practice, but in early stages of pumping them out, it definitely would hurt).
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I will disagree with this one based on how I think it works (though I could be wrong).
As I’m pretty sure that Armour will be applied to Double Edge damage after the damage reduction it will reduce the damage taken by quite a lot.
At full upgrades without medic DR:
Either vs ground
- (11-6)/.15-10 = 23.3 DPS recieved
Or vs Air - (9-6)/.15-10 = 10 DPS recieved
Or with medic DR:
Either vs ground
- (11-6)x.75/.15-10 = 15 DPS recieved
Or vs Air - (9-6)x.75/.15-10 = 5 DPS recieved
Which is a 35-50% actual reduction in damage for an ability that gives 25% reduction right?
Put the medic healing on top of this and BCs will be totally fine as long as you can keep the medics alive (for which a few landed Vikings or Firebats will hopefully do fine).
Additionally, you can grab individual BCs you see being actively healed and utilise their Yamato gun and take significantly less feedback damage right?
I’m confused on your calculation values… and firstly, only this situation can occur:
Medic’s cannot heal mech otherwise…
And what are these values?
- 11 is the 8 base against ground +3 upgrades
- 6 is 3 base armor + 3 upgrades
- 0.75 is to account for the 25% damage reduction
- 0.15 is the attack speed with max mastery
- But what is the “-10”?
Btw, you need to understand that Double Edge meant you don’t really ever die, as long as you sustain.
It is meant to heal you back up at 10HP/s but in-practice 8HP/s.
So if you place a scenario where 3/3 BC is against 3/3 BC.
- The BC-taking-dmg will take ~ 128-132dmg (over 10sec), or 13DPS
- The BC-doing-dmg will take ~ 6-8dmg (over same period), or NOT EVEN 1DPS
- If you place a Medic with the BC-taking-dmg, it will stay healthy the entire time. And by proxy, the Double Edge’d BC-doing-dmg “with a medic” would also stay healthy (as it is not even taking 1DPS worth at all).
Honestly, the only reason the BC-doing-dmg is even taking any damage at all (as long as it survives) is because the discrepancy between the the value it should heal vs the value it actual heals. As a result, any unit surviving Double Edge damage does take some minor damage while it heals itself back.
The problem with the math is mostly wrong because of a number of factors you didn’t account for:
- Wiki is wrong, you don’t ever reach 0.15 attack speed
- BC’s actual DPS cannot reach that level at all
- Double Edge, unless it kills you, does practically 0 dmg at the end. This is why testing it is interesting.
Yeah the 10 was for the 10 DPS of healing that Double Edge is supposed to give.
Could update the formula for the correct BC DPS (whatever it is) and the correct Double Edge healing rate but it shouldn’t change the conclusion too much?
What is the actual attack speed value? .15+random value? Average .18?
I think you need to go do some testing with Double Edge as I can tell you that there is no situation where a BC is doing less than 1 DPS to itself. Playing BCs with this mutator requires either constant healing or teleporting individual BCs away as their health gets down to the red (in about the time frame that my calculation suggests above I’d say ~12-15 seconds of constant ground attack).
Actually, perhaps the units Armour isn’t applied to the damage it does to itself?
0.15 +/- 0.0625 with mech attack speed (rather, it’s +/- a calculation step, with is 0.0625 in SC2 iirc)
It should even out as minimum attack delay is 0.0625 as well and BCs don’t hit that, but we’ve seen in practice it normally doesn’t, for whatever reason. Technically, some BCs should be firing faster than normal as much as they fire slower.
Unless, maybe BCs have an attack animation attached that’s ~0.015 or more, that’d prevent the speed increase from working right, while the decreased shots would work as normal.
(cause apparently I’m mechanics trivia guy right now, for anyone who wasn’t aware, this is also why drop speed and P2 stim is basically meaningless on the BCs. Mech attack speed alone is effectively a soft max, anything below 0.125 has massively reduced effectiveness.)
It’s a moot point. The only way to measure self-damage is to watch how long the BC takes to kill itself.
There’s no value to testing that at all. The point of ever crossing Double Edge is to deal enough to kill enemy, while not enough and let it heal back up (whether using medic to help with it).
I think the “point” was to compare the effectiveness of Medic healing vs SCV/MULE healing, right? With a secondary point being about how much damage a BC does to itself when attacking (mainly ground units).
I was thinking I could do that test when I’m back at my computer attacking rocks with and without medic healing to see the DPS/reduction/energy usage.
The follow up question would be “how long does it take to pay off the investment into medics?”. Even that would be tricky as healing with MULEs probably requires going up from 4 OCs to 5 or 6 right?
I final minor point would be that medics heal at range while SCVs heal at melee range.
Overall I’m not particularly invested one way or another, I used to try to use medics but I think they die too easily by themselves on the ground so it’s only from this conversation that I might try some grounded Vikings and/or Firebats to mitigate Medic losses.
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Follow up question:
- Has anyone confirmed that SCV/MULE healing uses the discounted cost to determine repair cost and not original, undiscounted cost?
Seems obvious but knowing SC2 Coop I wouldn’t be surprised 
.
I think you keep skipping the fact this is resolved… already…
Not sure why you keep bringing it up…
BC at any upgrades x/x against different units of x/x would do different DPS, thus leading to that ‘particular DPS’ amount of Double Edge. Given that Medic is tested to be better, then it doesn’t really matter what your values are. If that makes sense.
- Essentially if the DPS ends up being less than 8, then BC takes 0 damage from DE.
- If it is between 8-20 DPS then with medic, it is taking 0 damage as long as Medic has energy.
- Anything beyond 20DPS would mean different rates of HP drain while with a medic… but if you wish to find out exactly if it is 23, or 21 vs a +3 armored BC or Goliath or whatever… sure. Though I see no relevance in that?
Exactly, didn’t mean to drag this on but after that quoted post, I thought I’ve proved myself wrong lol. Figured this would of ended but not sure why it keeps coming up. So I’ll stop at least.
We should start a new thread at this point if we keep going, I think. 
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