Dehakaburger's Co-op Revamp proposals for Co-op Developers

Co-op Missions Discussion
22

Maybe they see serious flaws in the suggestions made?

There are some good suggestions… but they are few among so many others.

I mean most of the suggestions seem way over the top. Like 45% speed buff for dehaka… does dehaka really lack mobility? And even if he does, would something like 15% not be more appropriate?

Do you realize that 45% is almost twice as much as zagaras frenzy at +25%? Even at full mastery, frenzy is only at about +36%. That is quite a few % less than what is suggested as a permanent! buff to dehaka. I don’t know your reasoning, but to me it does seem ridiculous, and obviously so.

Or omega worms… they are already one of the strongest mechanics in the game, providing the strongest pesistent offensive AoE buff plus healing though creep, vision, detection, unparalelled ground mobility, free huge HP structures you can use to block entrances and enemy attacks, allow alarak to overcharge anywhere he wants, almost nullify missile command effects… i love playing with omega worms, but i was suprised that they even got detection on top of everything else. Giving them taunt makes little sense logically and gameplay wise is just crazy in my opinion. They are so good, that buffing them more just seems wrong, even if it was something far less impactful as giving them a crowd control effect.

Or 7 strong cumulative bufs for a single unit (corruptors)? We can discuss wether they need a buf or not, and maybe they do. But the -50 gas cost is already a strong buf. So is +50% damage to secondary target. So is corruption autocast. So is AoE corruption. etc. The suggestions here would result in nothing short of corruptors dominating all air compositions without! any support from zagara and still shrug off most damage from ground units. I think sniping objectives on maps like rifts to corhal with mass corruptors would be a thing then.

That being said, i wish devs would address easier to detect problems like stetman / stukov lag. I also dislike how some commanders you rarely ever see, cause almost noone likes to play them… and that has worsened much more on brutal+ where like 2/3 of players are dehaka, tychus or zeratul.

3 Likes
23

From my opinion, to play Karax you need to either go for his towers or army.

I think your idea may be viable if you can make it into an ability to “store” away tower so you can deploy them in the Pylon field.
That would make it even versatile than Maguro’s Idea however this can overlap with Zeratul’s tower deployments.
maguro’s aim was probably increase the versatility of towers yet not overlap with Zertul tower play.

24

Movement speed increase along with vision increase is to improve Dehaka’s Hunting potential in earlier stages. For 45% movement seemed to be good in early hit and run tactics.
Actually when you hit Full Frenzy your attack and movement speed goes up to 70% not 36% and it affects all your army and allies.

I actually added them so they can serve as distraction for Kerrigan’s fragile units such as Hydralisks and Mutalisks, but unfortunately the Brutal AI is smart enough to immediately switch to my units.
I guess Taunt isn’t that unnecessary. But I would like to see if Omega Worms can push through enemies as they emerge from the ground (They can’t be summoned in the middle of the enemy).

Corruptors buff are long time coming and unfortunately they are still incomplete at this point. I was going to give them -50 gas discount but I changed it to -25 discount at the last minute because I felt they would became too cost effecive.
Corruption isn’t something they use a lot, so I gave them autocast and a splash, (it can be in small area though). I gave them 50% Protective Cover, which protects scourge not for themselves (I tested this out already and you are right them becoming OP).

Unfortunately, SC2 runs with single or dual core. It can’t handle Multi core, or else those problems won’t be “problems” anymore. I wonder why can’t they re-implement the use of every core for better gameplay?

25

I’m sure it did. It’s a huge buff. Similar things you could say if you buffed his HP by 45%.

That being said, i have the impression that dehaka is already very strong. From my experience he is the single most played commander on brutal+. And if you are active with him early on, and not slapping rocks for 2 minutes, his early game seems to be quite strong too.

I think in the most simple terms: does dehaka actually need a buf?

They were buffed - spawning 2 scourges for free was a huge buff. Then there were some smaller changes.

Now, even if you gave them just corruption autocast and nothing else, having 12 or so corruptors would pretty much debuff most enemies and structurs. Which in turn means +35% damage buff across the board, even against ground targets. And even for your ally if he is closeby.

So it seems to me it would be reasonable to ask: is this single change already too strong? +35% damage is no small change. It would also affect zagara and all her spells.

…

All that being said about zagara, here are some changes i would consider good for her: give her corpser roaches… not necessarily as you suggested for her calldown (although i think you could do that too), but instead give her the ability to simply build corpser roaches.

Zagara lacks in unit diversity - that would give her one additional unit. It would also buff zagaras huge deficit: sustained defense like on miner evac. It would also not be too OP, cause roaches are supply heavy units, and zagara has only 100. Even if somewhat OP, you could adjust their price to compensate.

I would also appreciate a buf for her queens to move faster off creep… their transfuse ability is great in combination with abberations and corruptors - but they mostly can’t be at the front due to lacking creep. In fact i would like to see that for all queens in coop.

…

It seems to me that you tend to be overly enthusiastic with numbers.

You have to keep in mind, that without a challenge, the game becomes boring. The suggested changes would more or less remove any challeng zagara has against air compositions.

Likewise, if you buff one unit type too much, it will come at the cost of other units applicability. I.e. your corruptors would probably make building scourges obsolete.

Ok thats a wall of text already, so i’ll stop here…

1 Like
26

Which is why I’m suggesting knocking off 20% of the resource cost. Yes, his towers are powerful, but it’s been shown that in Coop, units are still more essential. Making his towers cheaper lets one not have to pick between the two.

27

If we can perfect your proposal where Karax can retract his buildings and have them build anywhere in Pylon Field, then I don’t think 20% resource would be necessary.
The good thing about 20% resource discount is, it is more easier to implement.
If you want to keep the discount, you may have to leave the towers to stay afixed in its place.
The 2 proposals are so good they cannot both be implemented for balance purposes.

1 Like
28

Which is why I think Karax needs a different approach to his building, instead of movable (Zeratul/Zerg) or removable (Terran) simply make them cheap/easy to place.

20-30% cost reduction to ALL buildings (so Karax can rapidly expand to get better economy, as well as cheaply push building deep defenses)
allow probes to build at range 4-6… increase to global build range (500) with L2 Solarite

Then I like the idea of moving his unit tax back to 50% and boosting his units toughness and special abilities
(say 2x hp, 50% cooldown reduction)
for carrier 3-5x healing rate and heal on the move
for mirage ignore enemy armor while phased
for colossus flame strike does not slow attack rate and increase damage (either dps OR duration and let it stack)

29

I’m not sure about the towers but when it comes to other buildings that might not be so bad.
But personally I wish Khalai Ingenuity Talent can cut Karax’s Building time shorter by 50%.

I’m not sure the developers can implement that (because of lot of time required). But maybe jumping them through Pylon matrix would be better. Teleporting them would make them similar and Overpowered as Zeratul.

It was 30% actually and yes I would like that.
While I personally like Maguro’s revamp, I may have other solution to it.
Adding Shield and Health to +50% for talent 1 and keeping Discount Mastery (but gas only).

After Writing lot of proposals and getting feedbacks, I can say that I agree and I’m starting to learn mediation (or grasping the concept)

30

No, don’t take away one of his best powers.

Beef up the Ravasaurs’ armor (they’re too squishy).

31

Dehaka’s Psionic Burst can deal 320 Area damage with max level. While lacking in Kerrigan’s area range its power and frenquency far exceeds her Immobilisation Aura even when she fully upgrades her Immoblisation Aura.
And lot of us can agree that 320 Death Burst is mostly more preferable than wide stun with 200 damage.

I’m thinking of increasing Dehaka’s Primal Leader’s Cooldown by 60 seconds.

Don’t get me wrong that I dislike Dehaka.
I love Dehaka but Co-op needs to be balanced and Dehaka the way he is now too Overpowered.

1 Like
32

Compared to Abathur? Or even Zagara?

33

At least abathur requires some effort and planning to ramp up quickly, but just because aba is op doesn’t mean dehaka isn’t.

With zagara, you have to constantly dump resources into having wave clear potential, as well as spend thousands of resources and time to research and upgrade your units. Dehaka’s wave clear can have a cooldown literally quicker than zagara banes can morph. Dehaka can stand his ground on his own on miner evac, zagara cannot.

34

Abathur has condition to build up his army to be complete, before that Abathur units are relatively vulnerable.

Zagara’s suicidal units have instant destructive potential. but needs heavy resources

Dehaka has very powerful units, very powerful calldowns and he himself is the strongest hero. With this holy trinity, Dehaka reigns as the most powerful Commander right now (If not one of the top 3).
Dehaka do needs some nerfs to for balance Primal Leader cooldown increase and Dehaka’s Psionic Burst decrease will do just that. But even with those nerfs Dehaka will remain very very powerful.

And besides, Dehaka can destroy any of these three through Trinity powers. Trust me on this I tried this before.

Also I want to give some untapped potential to Coop commanders to better balance out with the rest in terms of power. For example I gave Regenerative Acid on Banelings (scourges are considered) so Zerglings and Aberrations can have better duration and improved Corruptors so they can be a viable choice.
Here are the links, you may find some improvements in them.

Banelings Regen Acid
https://youtu.be/C6Nv0_MiBuk

Corruptors
https://youtu.be/tnQNanBNO54

35

Revamp Proposal Log Updated.

Karax

Mirage Proposal (Anti Air Gravitational beam)

Abathur

Pressurised Glands should cost less than it is now

Alarak

Added War Prism Matrix Overload Effects and some details about casting Structural Overload on it. (video included)

Han & Horner

  • Improved missile abilities of Deimos Vikings (video included)

Mengsk

  • Added revamp details on Sky Fury regarding level 2 & 3 abilties. (video included)

Others

Added bugs for DoN maps.

36

Updated Zagara with Regenerative Acid for Banelings.
Others regarding about issues with Hybrid Dominators especially with the bug that Plasma Blast can damage units inside Gryffin (Nova) or Medivac (Tyhcus)

37

I want this change:

Abathur — Biomass moves towards Overseers (infinite range). Overseers absorb biomass (A LOT) and distribute it among units around them. Units no longer grow in size with biomass (I mean come on) :stuck_out_tongue:

38

Brutalisk are most fitting candidates as they can deep tunnel they way. Although I would like this change but I don’t speak for some people who like to pick them up.

Hmm, it a good cosmetic effect, but the size do get in the way. Maybe it will be fine if they decrease the size.

39

I’d suggest making it toggleable then, but then people would complain that their self-inflicted handicap is not fair :frowning:

It’s just that I see biomass collection as senseless busywork, scouring the map for literal leftovers.

2 Likes
40

I like the idea of overseers doing it. (the busywork is a late game thing, and that way it doesn’t interfere with the early game UE production)

The only other thing I’d do with Abathur is make the UE cost resources (either gating the ability to make them or individually)

41

probably would limit it to hive tech