Co-op Mission Update - June 13th, 2019

Which is pretty much what happened in the last round of CO buffs. The end result was that Brutal ended up being so easy that it became boring.

I like his Zel’naga Enforcers/immortals for anti air, which are pretty decent but people also act like you can mass them or something. They cost 750/250? each or something like that so they should be powerful for that price.

I personally don’t like mass ghost cannons either, aside from the zelnaga towers or w/e they’re called that shoot out a stun. Those are on a CD though so if you lose one you gotta wait to replace it.
For cannons I stick to Karax. I enjoy Zeratul army more anyways apart from the temple map which is where I’ll end up placing lots of cannons.

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Oh yeah. They’re not bad units by any means, IMO his second best lazy build after cannons. But as you said, the cost is insanely high and while they’re incredibly tanky once they get the health refresh, between the slow fire speed, tendency to all target the same thing, and incredibly high cost per DPS, they’re nowhere near the practical DPS effectiveness of many common builds, even on older commanders, from Raynor marines (or BCs for that matter…) to Kerrigan Mutas/Hydras, etc etc.

Still a good unit but I just can’t see them as being overpowered at all given the cost.

I must be missing something here. I’m going to assume you all mean Immortals by themselves, cause honestly no adept Zeratul player would dare make Immortals and keep them by themselves. Pair those up with a dozen shieldguards and they become not only close to immortal(Irony) but their whole unit becomes the overpowered cluster-fluck we all know about, at least strat wise. Then have two dozen cannons to support your Immortal/Shieldguard wave which moves around through Void Arrays and you’ve got yourself a solid comp for any brutal map, save for ground lings/banes, which your two sets of cannons should be able to attract/halter.

When I first saw Zeratuls Immortals knocking an enemy battlecruiser a full screen distance away from the fight, I was dumbfounded at this unit. Honestly getting all 3 artifacts and building a robotics bay makes these immortals and shieldguards one hellishly unstoppable strat.

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If you consider the rest of my post and the comparison I think it’s easier to follow.

Yes, zeratul immortals are good. Yes, obviously you pair them with shield guard. Yes, that comp is very safe and strong. However, it pales in terms of actual kill speed and overall effectiveness compared to many other compositions; even of the ones I listed, Kerrigan mutas kill MUCH faster and can be anywhere with little micro as well as being much easier to mass quickly with mastery.

Your suggested composition with cannon support is by no means bad! I just feel that it’s more work for a lot slower clearing than many other commander’s builds, some of which (ex. Raynor battlecruisers, especially with Karax/Swann support or avoiding Amove and having a few medics back at base to heal) are similarly tanky, have MUCH better effective damage/major threat deletion capabilities, infinitely more mobile, and take less actual effort to run.

I definitely agree that zera’s immortals are really fun to use and super tanky though. I love their design and since I don’t really enjoy cannon zeratul or his DTs, I usually run immortal/disruptor/shieldguard derp balls and amove to glorious victory.

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I think you guys just compare strangely. Like saying Commander Army X is better than Commander Army Y already doesn’t work, because otherwise Alarak would be King, but it takes time to get Ascendants to 10 stacks. It’s also not PvP, but PvE so everything is balanced against AI which allows for “unfair” stuff to be introduced and kept.

The only real issue (like with Stukov) is when 1 strategy for 1 particular commander outshines all other strategies for that same commander, cause then you lose diversity of play, with anyone who doesn’t like cookie cutter tactic X being left out

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Ha, fine summation. Hit it right on the dot.

Granted we should be addressing the update itself as opposed to making general statements about strategy. On that note, we’re all hitting just shy off its mark, lol.

Zeratul immortal sentry disruptor compo is overpowered because it A-moves and win against everything with no unit losses. It is a design flaw that the compo have no weakness AND it doesn’t require micro.

Karax deathball is almost equally powerful but it require using SoA or shadow cannon as anti-air, you can lose units unless you micro it well, which is very unlike a-move and win.

This is nice and all for everyone who is lvl 15+ already, but new players (as well as players who bought new commanders) will have a tougher time leveling-up their commanders. Yes, some commanders can go low-level Hard or even Brutal, but others can’t.

I’d feel better about this if XP Boosts were readily available… outside of limited windows of Warchest and new CO bundles.

FWIW, getting to lv15 “does happen before you know it”. It’s lv90 where the long road is, but on the plus side, you only need to do that once.

I don’t know about others, but I follow the guidelines listed for the difficulty levels, so I won’t go Brutal until I’ve hit Mastery anyways. Only exceptions are Zeratul and Tychus. When I hit lv5 to lv8 for them, Hard was actually kind of easy (which is saying a lot since I’m not THAT great at Coop), so I jumped ahead to Brutal for them.

Otherwise, I take it this is the tradeoff we’ll just need to deal with (which seems to be overall positive).

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Is there a preview of the new enemy composition callout somewhere?

How about the game speed for Hard mode?

Please put the game speed to fastest as Brutal mode for Hard mode.

Don’t quite get this. If I am playing against Sky Terran composition, there would be another new wave or what?

There would be an entire new composition made out of sc1 units - for example valkyries and wraiths.

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See the thing is, a lot of people come to brutal just for that speed increase. If they implemented it on Hard, a lot of brutal players will jump right down to Hard.

Now for people who do not care for levels, and do not care for ‘making a pve unranked game competitive’ they will render brutal useless and just stay in Hard all happy-go-lucky like.

But I do see something good coming out of this, the fact that all those low levels brutalizing their random teammates by jumping into Brutals unprepared, might sanction off down to Hard mode. But no guarantee to that.

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I 100% agree with pushing the speed of hard mode(and every other mode), up to fastest.

When I want an easy game on a new commander, I often pick hard mode. But, the speed feels agonizingly slow. There are certainly times where the only reason why I go brutal is the speed. There’s already a huge difference in wave sizes going from hard to brutal, so I don’t see any advantage to making the speed change as well.

My experience, when showing new people to the game(for both sc1 and sc2), is that even 100% newbies prefer the fastest speed. Hell, the ‘casual’ version of SC1 that was far more popular than ladder in NA was FPME(fastest possible map ever).

I have a strong feeling that the decision to change game speeds based on difficulty has never been ‘validated’ from an enjoyment perspective.

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Good points. Alas friends of mine that I’ve gotten into SC2 and ran em through the modes have all tried going back to Brutal just for that speed increase.

If Blizzard’s Dev Team implements wave and formation changes to BOTH Hard and Brutal like they said, then they should actually increase the game speed in Hard as well. Otherwise it feels like Hard will get Harder, because it is slower, yet with the same changes, hence the paradox being created here.

Sure one might argue that in Hard you do not get massive wave digits like you do in Brutal. But… If you are going into Hard to prepare for Brutal, both from a player standpoint and Dev’s, then wouldn’t the speed increase match up make more sense? The more I look at it the more they should implement a speed increase in Hard to center the weight on that seesaw between Brutal and Normal.

Now, in Blizzard’s defense however. Is their Matchmaking system. Hard’s often get paired with Casuals and Normal partners. So what do you do here? Do you speed increase the casuals and normal players as well? That’s where I think the boarder line seems to be in terms of speed.

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I see. Thought that we are going to get 2 different attack waves at the same time or something like that in the game.

Slower game speed is one of the primary reasons why I hate leveling a low-level commander on my own in the public game. Unless my ally is my friend who is willing to carry and power level me at Brutal, immediately jumping to Brutal with the new commander on the public game will make my random ally annoyed and displeased with me in the whole game.


On the second thought, except for adding a new wave and few upgrades for the Amon’s forces, is it going to be enough to give us a challenge? I thought that they would at least launch 2 separate waves to keep us busy but it turned out there are no such things here.

Maybe they should let Amon’s unit cheated a bit like increasing their Armor/Weapon upgrade cap to Lv4 or Lv5 or something.

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Yes, zeratul immortals are good. Yes, obviously you pair them with shield guard. Yes, that comp is very safe and strong. However, it pales in terms of actual kill speed and overall effectiveness compared to many other compositions;

Mass stalkers will kill stuff way more effectively than low DPS immortals. Immortals are only good because they’re tanky and do splash to air.

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If you guys want fastest speed then just stay on Brutal. Or make party and set fastest in custom coop game. There are people (me included) who are forced to play on Hard just because fastest speed tires them or even causes headaches and unlike you, we can’t change speed for Brutal games even in custom.

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No argument there! I love mass stalker on Zeratul, it does have some squish issues (and it always tilts me the laser only procs every 8 sec no matter how much you blink) but is one of his more fun comps when I feel like playing a less braindead comp haha.

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bonjours une question c est normal que le comptage des unité buff par stetmann n est pas la meme que se que le jeux compte pour le HF car a chaque game il m en compte au moins 400 alors que pour le Hf il en compte meme pas 50