Brutal vs Brutal+

I wonder to myself how much the opinion of people in your demographic (mastered Brutal but never made the transition to B+) would change if you took the time to play enough B+ to get the hang of it.

I get what you mean though, I wanted to play Alarak last night and first map that turned up had Double Edge and I think I could have managed it with Alarak and Slayers but I just wasn’t really in the mood for it right? Back to queue screen and someone asks if anyone wants to play B+ so I invite them and set the difficulty to B+3. I figured if it’s too annoying we’ll change the map or I’ll change commander. However, it was Life Leech, Just Die and Hardened Will. Certainly doable by P1 Alarak and P2 Karax. However it took us 3 tries! Especially as the Classic Terran Mech comp drops BCs that are in your base at 8 minutes that can heal themselves. Once we survived the early game (only managed to fast expand on the 3rd try because Diamondbacks kept on killing my probe and running away) it was much more manageable but the mutators required both armies and lots of top bar usage to take on attack waves and Hybrid waves (pushing waves were manageable). It was a good, fun, tough map that made us feel like we earned it and required some focus, micro and macro (though my macro was actually a bit bad for a while there and I should have gone up from 8 gateways to 10 or 12 to catch up on production).

I did an Ascendant/WW comp but I found myself wondering if pure WW might have actually worked better or if P3 pure Ascendants could have been better however it was certainly fun and it’s a comp i really enjoy. My ally went Immortal and I only realised after the game that he could have had an easier time by leaning into reclamation but we managed okay anyway in the end even if we did have to figure out the early game.

I feel like overall on B+ that the majority of games are totally fine. Maybe 15% are a little bit annoying and 5% are super annoying/hard to play (though this will very with commander choice and skill). The other 80% are some variation on difficulty and little quirks imo. I mean, something like mineral shields, as someone else puts it, takes 4 seconds of attention every 60 seconds to clear right?

Point is, i don’t think I’m particularly good (especially at the moment when I’m playing maybe once in 2 weeks) but I don’t find B+1 to be particularly difficult or tedious 95% of the time but I do think the rewards are there, especially if you get the hang of the basics and have a go at some of the harder ones.

To each their own of course!

I do try it from time to time, especially the unit mutator ones vs anti qol ones. It does get completed and oftentimes i’ll go click on a ally and we would win it first try but it wouldn’t be a enjoyable game with like a 500:250 or 400:400, and then i’d click on a ally and their past 2-17 missions were just dying on a mission or killing people on one of the mutators your allys can kill you on.

I just did the brutation this week, 19 Minutes with my usual and a swann ally. Not the best time but a first try at least. But it did just feel like the same game but with syrup poured all over it. We rolled Diffusion zerglings so a big problem was that they basically would zerg over all our targets. My swann was always missing 40% hp so i ran double healer and still frequently had to take more downtime for healer and to top off his army. I did mess around with a Nikara first due to mutator and had worries of nading the zerglings from double edged explosion flashbacks. To my bizzarre relief, one mercy was nade was still usable on zerglings but chainfire blaze would just immediately self detonate himself into a literal death through 1500 hp in 1-2 seconds. I probably would have messed around with ranged Counters such as Sirius’s Aoe explosion clears and aoe fears as a semi counter to ranged aoe damage, or used a commander build with good vision such as maybe perhaps a Raynor with scans and siege tank clearers and enough orbitals to block out the sun.

I can see how brutal+ would force you to break out of one meta and mess around and that’s definitely fair. It definitely makes you use more tools but also at the same time when you get used to the speed of brutal and look at some of those ally pages where…

They failed some certain past mutations 17 times in a row. (My ally just had like scattered pages of them like spending 17 games in a row retrying mutation and 19 minute loss marks), it’s not more or less of a can’t do it thing, just a not much desire to to do it thing. Obviously anyone who mains Brutal+ will know and get better with knowing the hard interactions and anything that’s pretty unclear. it just seems like it’s obvious that you could roll some comps where swarmlings can be great anti qol (diffusion, fatal attraction ± mines, chain fear etc.).

Some of the ones that don’t really change gameplay much other than annoyance with smaller armies are the aoe mutator ones. Honestly those don’t change brutal much but force you to watch a screen or your ally occasionally afking to death inside of one.

I mean i don’t find it impossible just generally it’s a version of a game where i’d rather vary my brutal comp a bit and run Mind control or chain fire armies or play around split pushing the odin while medivacing teleporting a ally, while setting up a battlecruiser teleport jump to attack a third point, while setting up a vision scv to defend another point if needed than click mineral shields. It’s more or less of a can’t do situation, just more of a don’t really enjoy situation. Like putting sticky syrup on a keyboard or rubik cube, it doesn’t stop you from beating it through, it just makes the game seem a bit more slower. And sometimes you either have it not affect you at all or majorly cripple a ally who just kinda spends the whole game a bystander like a 10% hp army swann waiting minutes between each pull waiting for his science vessels to heal and revitalizers to recharge.

I don’t mind the occasional long range or life leech just i’d rather play unit mutators than microtransactions mineral shields etc, but that’s good, to each their own. They’re probably both competitive for xp a hour though unless you speedrun super fast affixes. The brutal+6 karax cradle farm / Tomato farm i remember being pretty fast exp though, but i play sc2 more to relax but it’s kinda nice people can pick which mode they want.

I think brutal+, you get 275% xp vs 200% of brutal, so that can be about +37.5% more xp per game, but if you wanted to do, say a 11 minute VT vs say a 15-23 minute one with mutations, it’d probably even out with a 11 minute brutal VT vs 15 minute brutal+ VT evening out, maybe even quicker if it’s a trivial one or longer one. But if it goes over 20 minutes it might eat things in a bit. But yeah, as long as you enjoy yourself, it’s not time wasted.

Brutal+ definitely does make you get less into autopilot mode than just repeating the same build over and over and both probably average pretty competitive exp rates for each person. But yeah lmao, to each their own!.. The memories are uh… Very UNIQUE for sure haha. XD (Getting kidnapped by allies to be used as baneling shields, nuked raynor allies, Killbots with stukov allies who weren’t feeding the killbots on a brutal+ random encounter as nova, etc. )

i think brutal+ does definitely make you go out of your way to change the way you play. But to some people that’s thrilling for their cup of tea, others i think im fine being a Stettmans’ Kidnapped anti Baneling meat shield once haha. XD

But yeah, definitely cups of tea for different people! I think I’m happy with maybe the occasional brutation for fun every once in a while but i think playing for fun i kinda enjoy fleet mc chain fire armies with bc warps a bit more. It’s fun to watch things light on fire vs being the one lit on fire. :smiley:

And another person’s favorite cup of tea MIGHT be the same memory flipped over, kidnapping their hapless ally to use as a flying baneling F. Attraction meat shield to soak all the explosive targets lmao. XD
Definitely seems like you remember your brutal+ stories!

And there definitely people much better than i who just like to beat brutations on like 10-20 different prestieges a week, But i kinda like my casual races and just messing around with a stolen bc fleet stomping haha. XD But yeah, they are good for making you think around with commander tools you haven’t used before!

If you’ve seen Sprite play Alarak on brutations then you’ll see he certainly has the skill to handle B+. B+ suffers from the issue that certain map/mutator combos are totally buggy which means you lose not because of a lack of skill, but just bad luck. You just have to accept that annoyance, and sometimes I know I just don’t want to.

Have we played a Brutation together before? It’s been so long, lmao, but thanks for the support.

But yes, this basically sums it up. I can handle B+ if I really wanted to double down and deal with it as an Alarak main, but there’s so many singular mutations, let alone mutation combos, that just completely shut you down.

The following mutators available (and/or combos) really gimp an Ala main:

Summary

*Concussive Attack: Most of your army is slow. Unless you’re going Death Fleet, CA + Any number of other mutators means your army suddenly falls to a stand-still, even Alarak is mutilated by this.
*Double-Edged: All of your units are high damage units, barring Supplicants. Alarak dies if he uses any spell, Ascendants will get chunked (and Power Overwhelming murders them outright.) Slayers may be an option here, but their shield only lasts so long.
*Fatal Attraction/Fear: These are on the same level of annoyance as they effectively make the game unfun. You can’t micro anything, and the bigger the unit is, the bigger the pull radius. Fear does similar things but tends to scatter your army if you’re against anything with splash.
*Kill bots: Unless you have a Zagara/Kerrigan/Stetmann/Stukov/Mengsk/Raynor ally, you’re forced to sacrifice Probes to this. Not a good trade-off, even if it takes up your entire mutator pool.
*Laser Drill: This plus Concussive Attacks means you’re never able to play the game. You’re infinitely slowed until you can take down the drill and keep it down.
*Lava Burst: On maps with small safety zones, this one is… Well, nothing short of a nightmare. Once again, slow units, and air units take double damage.
*Micro Transactions: Another unfun mutator that punishes micro play. Can be dealt with using an A-Move GG army, but with how expensive and micro intensive your army is, even on A-Move… Yeah. Next.
*Moment of Silence: Kills you. If you get this + Speed Freaks/Avenger, you can just take your hands off the keyboard because you ain’t playing the game anymore.
*Self Destruction: This + Speed Freaks/Avenger = GG. Amon loves to use his speed to jump onto your army, doesn’t matter what you’re using, and suicide bomb it. I cant’ tell you how many times this has severely dented or wiped an army of mine.
*Slim Pickings: Anyone who plays an expensive CO that can’t hero solo knows why this sucks, even by itself.
*Twister/Blizzard: Mostly annoyances because big, slow ball. But just an annoyance.

Other mutations of note that have some interactions but aren’t available or don’t do much:

Summary

*Aggressive Deployment: Unless paired with Self Destruction, just walk away. Concussive Attacks makes this super annoying though, especially if you’re against something Reaver/Disruptor/Baneling heavy.
*Black Death: Death. Just straight up death. If any of your big units or Alarak gets hit, that’s it. Game over, man. Sacrificed units still explode, last I checked.
*Barrier + Just Die: A super annoying combination. You have to kite the best you can, but still struggle at times. If you don’t have a strong enough ally, then the game can crumble away in seconds.
*Diffusion: Just make Ascendants and kite. That’s all you have to do. Making big mech against it is just bad form.
*Evasive Maneuvers: Your orbs have a large radius. EM isn’t a problem.
*Going Nuclear: Similar issues to Lava Bursts but much more punishing. Slow army, big nuke. Debatably easier to deal with.
*HftS: The big daddy of mutators. This one can be game-ending if you don’t keep your army at an arm’s length. Heroes like Kerrigan can slaughter everything you have in seconds.
*Missile Command: Generally an annoyance mutator, since you only have Cannons and Overcharge for base defense. Without a hitscan ally, might as well gg unless you have an exceptionally fast map like Void Thrashing.
*Mineral Shields: No auto targeting from Cannons. Next.
*MAD: A non-factor with Alarak’s Wave and Ascendant disco balls.
*Polarity: One of the hardest mutators in the game, as it demands teamwork (right up there with Boom Bots.) You have to stick to your ally like glue or reset.
*Poops: This requires good reaction timing. Poops are already decent speed, so your sluggish army can be a bit annoying. Alarak has an auto dash too which means you need to keep him moving while kiting. If you get Poop + SF/Avenger, kiss your game goodbye.
*Void Rifts: If you don’t have a global ally, good luck with this. No, seriously. You have next to no mobility without your Mommyship, and having to burn your Fleet CD or Teleport CD just to deal with it is painful since you have to walk all the way back to the objectives.
*Transmutation: Unless paired with a series of other mutators (namely MAD, Speed Freaks, Life Leech, Diffusion, etc.), Transmute doesn’t bug you at all. Wrathwalkers can punch those Hybrid down, and Ascendants allow you to kite before Transmute can do much to you. Mind Blast also wipes them out.
*Temporal Field/Time Warp: Mostly annoyances. Make slow units go even slower.

All in all, too many solo mutators that just cripple or punish you. Mutation combos that you can run into can turn the game into a misery simulator, complete with anger, frustration, and desperately begging the game to stop being such a bully.

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There is no new skill to be had at all with most mutators. Their entire purpose is to simply delay the flow of Brutal by forcing the player to do “x task”.

How many players truly have the apm and skills to send and kill 2-4 void rifts with appropriately sized squadron of units at the same time, meanwhile dealing with 1-2 trains on OE with the rest of their main force?

  • Question is more, why are you in that situation in the first place?

What skill is there to be had when you have to kill units 2x in Just Die? It is quite literally just making sure you engage with ‘enough firepower’. There is no skill to be had except for not being a doofus.

  • Similarly here, why did you make the idiotic decision of approaching a wave that is essentially 2x its actual size?

What skill is there to be learned when navigating through Minesweeper? Learn the most basics of SC2? AKA get detection and clear mines??

  • What did you think was going to happen? The Mines and Widows magically decided you’re one cool dude, so they don’t attack you?

Yes, there’s a definite basic level of skills needed to deal with any mutator or mutator combination. However, that skill is no different in Brutal even without mutators. Mutators present these in a different format. Unfortunately, due to its lack of ‘relative balance’, it simply create an artificially unnecessary gap.

Being able to win against Just Die, Life Leech, Avenger as solo P2 Vorazun on MO against Swarmy (for example) is definitely a feat. However, I wouldn’t really say the same if Abby was swapped in and the map is on LL. These drastically changes the fundamental difference these mutators impact the gameplay.

Reading through this, I thought this was an attack on player skill, but finishing it through, yeah. There’s many, many, many dynamics in play when factoring in Commanders, maps, and mutators. The one thing I will disagree on is that some mutators and mutation combos do require a degree of skill, but if not skill then game sense.

For instance, Diffusion/Barrier/Just Die!. Why would any player with good game sense charge into an incoming wave with these active? You’d need to know how to kite (which is a skill in and of itself, due to micro management), and how to properly approach the fight (both being game sense.)

However, a large number of mutators and combos are skill-less, or even just brain-dead. Minesweeper would be one of these, as with a detector + longer range unit (like Wrathwalkers, Ghosts, Marauders, Hydras, etc.) effectively makes the mutator just an annoyance that slows down the player. Gotta shoot some mines before advancing on, oh no! But mindless ones that require the use of bugs (SpeedPoops being blocked using workers) or just nullifying them with a trap (Viper Void Reanimator trap) are just… In a really weird spot.

You know I read this and my gut reaction is that you’re overestimating many of these mutations or underestimating your ability?

First thing is to separate your list into mutations that can appear in B+1 and those that can only appear in B+2-6. Second thing is to draw a distinction between mutations in isolation and mutation combinations. In isolation most of the mutations are manageable but the frustration can definitely mount when combined with certain other mutations that interact negatively though occasionally some combinations can actually be beneficial to the player (like, as I understand it, Black Death+Double Edge). This is a numbers game though and I still come back to my perceived experience when I was playing a lot of B+1 that even as random commander I must have been close to a 95% win rate (removing the times my ally auto left). However, perhaps my positive outlook on life and general good vibes have blocked out some of the bad runs of awful mutation combinations (got Laser Drill plus Fear on Cradle last night and we couldn’t even manage to clear the expo though could have definitely restarted and switched commander :laughing::grin:).

I don’t believe that B+2-6 has to be designed to be beatable by every commander. It requires being in a party and once you’re in a party you have the option to make a decision together to go ahead with the map, retry with other commanders or just skip it and no one is going to feel bad. So that puts Transmutation, Just Die, Void Rifts, Poops, Polarity, HotS, Black Death, Minesweeper and Kill Bots in a separate discussion though of this list I think they’re all really playable as Alarak except Void Rifts and Kill Bots. Black Death is actually not so bad once you get up a death ball you can kite with, especially if you research destruction wave for better crowd control and quickly remove infected units from your army (hopefully just Alarak and Supplicants). Ascendants are pretty good at killing HotS (just have to stay ahead of the curve and target them well). Ascendants and WWs kill Poops great. Alaraks destruction wave is great CC against Poops. Kill Bots can be okay if you can clear buildings fast which P3 can be good at (map dependant) and Rifts can be okay if you can target early Rifts with Pylons+Overcharge and then keep a separate small control group army to handle them separate from main army (I’d be interested in suggestions by anyone that has played this a bit as to what would work best, maybe just some Slayers with a Warp Prism to Overcharge? Sometimes the best strategy with Rifts is to have 1 ally handle rifts and the other main objective and an Alarak deathball is very good at main objectives).

For B+1 mutations the only one that really ruins my day (and most other peoples) is Fatal Attraction. I think maybe this could use a tweak something like units can’t be affected by it for 1 second after they reach their new position just to give SOME counter play for Commanders like Alarak. The rest feel playable to me and can result in fun games imo.

  • Double Edge doesn’t autokill Alarak as long as he has units nearby. Have enough Supplicants and you can Destruction Wave with 0 cooldown. More sustainable strategy is Slayers though who have their 2 second invulnerability for an initial DPS burst and then have low enough DPS per unit that they won’t die. This strategy is even fine against Swarms just by adding Havocs and using Forcefield (though it will test your micro against Banes). Double Edge might be a net boost for Supplicants. I’ve wanted to practise some Ascendant micro to put maybe 2 groups of 4 on control groups and fire orbs from 4 at a time and micro them into War Prisms to avoid the feedback damage (I mainly practise this style with Emperor’s Shadow mini nukes, Nova with airlift and Odin with evac). Would be worth it against zergling/Bane comps for sure.
  • environmental mutators test your micro ability to keep your army out of danger and your macro ability as you have less time to look away from your army to do things at home. With Alaraks Deathball the impact of environmental mutators can be very minimal if you can hit the APM requirements (which aren’t very high).
  • economic mutators tend to put you in a low eco situation which will reduce army size which can affect your ability to stay ahead of the curve which Alarak needs to rofflestomp waves in style. These tend to really double down on how important it is to keep every single tech unit alive which should be a basic requirement for Alarak competency. They also tend to require some micro whether collecting resources, targeting photon cannons on mineral shields or not artificially inflating your APM with unnecessary clicks (sorry ladder players) which just takes some practise honestly. Also knowing the correct response helps (while I rely on others testing for this as I understand its best to not build probes or an expo with Slim Pickings but instead send most of them on patrol paths to collect Minerals with minimal input though i still put at least 4 on gas).
  • for the rest some can be more or less annoying depending on the map. Concussive only matters if you have to move around a lot and don’t have mama ship which shouldn’t be often. Fear only matters if you get hit which shouldn’t happen after early game. Laser Drill can be disabled. MOS is beaten by Havoc range boost on Ascendants and WWs or, you know, just running away. Self destruction and scorched earth only matter if the enemy can get close to you which shouldn’t happen after early game but **** playing against these+fatal (though scorched earth+fatal can work as P3 if Destroyers are viable against the comp).

While I can sympathise with a desire to have a different end game than the one we have what I really wish is instead of having general hate for B+ we could have a dialogue as a community to be a bit more constructive in our feedback to maybe work towards a community driven balance patch.

The 2 key areas that I think could be worked on:

  • mutator combination interaction. This could be as simple as adding additional +1 or more to the “level” when certain mutators are combined. Diffusion+Life Leech should be leveled outside of B+1 games as well as Fatal Attraction+Self Destruction for example. This would be a really simple fix that would take minimal work and really make B+1 more enjoyable.
  • commander/mutator interaction. Some commanders just get so super nerfed by some mutators that it can be a bit unfun though this is primarily a problem in B+2-6 and would take more development work. Some examples are Vorazun P2 and Double Edge, Vorazun and Black Death, Stettman non-P1 and Poops and Reanimators, many commanders and killbots.

Simply tweaking some mutators might help even the playing field:

  • Double Edge: damage can’t kill spellcasters, instead their spell damage is reduced to the amount of life they can lose without dying (or their spellcasting abilities are locked until they recover enough hypothetical HP to return them above 1 HP as if they were allowed to go into negatives)
  • Black Death: can’t kill but instead is removed from the unit 20 seconds after it reaches 1 HP (or perhaps make it a 1 level higher mutator and make a new mutator that is 1 level lower called plague with this affect but make the incidence of these mutators 50% less than normal). Alternatively or additionally, Guardian Shield, Emergency Recall and whatever Zaratuls Void Templar get should heal Black Death when it activates. Medics, Intercessors, Queens, Swarm Queens, Science Vessels and Mecha Infestors could/should remove Black Death with their primary ability or an additional added ability.
  • Killbots: add a research at the primary production structure that unlocks at 10-12 minutes that reduces worker cost by 50%.
  • Concussive Attacks: reduce the duration to 10 seconds
  • Fatal Attraction: units can’t be moved for 1 second after they stop moving from a Fatal activation. Add a “hold fire” button to units that have an attack that continues when the unit is moving (BCs, WWs, Mirages, Pheonixs etc). This hold fire could remain on until turned off allowing targeted removal (could help WWs a lot maybe allowing them to kite!).
  • Diffusion: damage to rocks isn’t diffused.

I’d also suggest allowing single mutators in B+1-6 allowing some of the higher level mutators into lower level games to give more opportunity to learn to play against them without having to deal with other mutators at the same time though I could be wrong about this? Perhaps expanding it to B+1-10 with B+10 being where B+6 is at the moment and B+1 being lower than current B+1 (so 3-5 points max, 1-3 mutators?). Though I’d hope to be able to random queue B+1 or +2 in this case :sweat_smile:.

Finally, revealing mutations on the loading screen and allowing prestiges to be switched (and a corresponding Mastery load out) would increase play variety (as this would make commanders generally more enjoyable as you could choose the right prestige for the map as well as the mutations).

Some of these suggestions could be simple fixes that maybe there is some hope for in the current climate that might make the higher difficulties more accessible for transitioning players? I don’t know, happy to hear peoples thoughts :grin:.

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Absolutely!

I wonder if the random is tilting your percentage up a bit. As long as all commanders are on their P0 or a mutator resilient prestige I think probably 75% or more of the commanders have decent responses. A commander like Alarak is probably in the bottom 50%, maybe bottom 25% for B+1 resilience. So if you played him rather than random I think it would feel more annoying/painful. Actually, how about that for a fun(?) challenge, next 10 B+1 choose Alarak. :wink:

That would be awesome, though I’m not sure it’s possible within the current limits of bugfixes. My biggest issue with B+ are the broken map/mutator combos. But that and your suggestions look like they need programming rather than adjustments to maps.

Another one I’m sure most would agree on but would require programming. Now we just need an inside man at MS who can get some dev resource allocated to SC2. :crossed_fingers:

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The only mutator I truly don’t like is Fatal Attraction, no matter the B+ level.

Kill a unit
Stunned up to 1 second
Kill another unit in a 1/4 of a second
Stunned for 1 second
Kill a unit in a 1/4 of a second
Stunned for 1second
Kill a unit in a 1/4 of a second
Stunned for 1 second
… and so on until your army is dead.

Might as well just M-move through an enemy army since it’s almost the same thing: not attacking while being attacked.

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Holy hell, that was one long post. But you do realize that I did separate these into different groups based on B+ and B+2 onward, right? The minimum B+ mutator value, according to SC2Coop, is 4 – and the max is 6. Everything I listed in the first list can be found in B+1, either by itself (if it’s a high roll), or with others (if it’s a low roll.)

I am looking at the interactions objectively from someone who has countless hours of Alarak experience. I am looking at the CO-Mutator interaction from an objective point of “This are Alarak problems, these are how they interact with him, this is why these are painful to play against.” Not factoring in skill or game sense at all. If I did, then a lot of these would just boil down to “excessively frustrating to see either as solo or in combo.”

This is a simple issue of “some people prefer to enjoy 3-5 games in an hour of down time” vs “some people don’t care” (cuz I guess they have a ton of spare time??).

And this sentiment isn’t any different even if we focus on Brutal (rather than B+). Even within Brutal, the difference can be a 10min map (say on LL) vs 15-20min with others. Or the all too familiar CoA of being sub15 vs painfully waiting to almost 20min while your ally waste their time to clear Elemental (or worse yet, lose entire army to that 2nd one lmfao :joy: ).

Mutators do just that, on top of the slight different alteration each brings, they just generally delay the map. The winrate is a joke, as most people who has decent skills will be 90%+ (and those who are more or less on the mastery side of it would be 99%, as the other times is just players quitting instantly due to map choice). After all, it is literally designed that players are to win that frequently.


For me, I just hate to play a game of SoA (for example) with mutators. And when knowingly you can finish ~16min but you can’t because your ally is:

  1. Either not commonly being able to do this.
  2. They simply can’t.

What this amounts to is that your planning, build up, and strategies can fall short as a result. Cuz we all know how well someone who can’t do the above can well communicate to you what they plan to do…

  • So what ends up happening is that you suffer through stronger waves as the map drags on.
  • You continue to carry them (assuming they don’t screw up) for extra 5-15min (sometimes even longer).
  • Worse yet, if they can’t handle themselves, they die (or cause enough of a problem leading to your base dying too).

So if your preference is that you enjoy those elements, great for you! To me though, I’ve gained nothing here. Basically, I carry harder, played longer, against designed mutators that I don’t particular enjoy either. Instead of enjoying 3 additional games in my down time, now I’ve played 2 games that could have ended quicker. Why…??? Would I do that.

Definitely the worst UNLESS playing Zagara (especially P1), Dehaka Creeper Hosts, Stettman Mecha Banes, Siege/rooted/burrowed units or Bunkers…

Though I definitely agree it could use a tweak (like minimum of 1 seconds not moving inbetween all movements to at least give a chance to cast abilities. Maybe not affecting invulnerable units either (so Vorazun DTs can Shadow Fury).

Your 2 lists were “really gimp” and “somewhat interact”. However, each list included both B+1 and B+2+ possible mutations.

B+1 and B+2+ is about player skill and game sense though. That’s why it’s the hardest difficulty. The “end game” if you will, despite its flaws. Alarak isn’t one of the stronger commanders but he really does do fine against B+1 and against many B+2+'s.

And well done if you got through that massive wall of text. I just went back and had a look, what a monster! Sorry about that.

But it isn’t the hardest difficulty… nor is it the end game? Even B+6 isn’t hardest or end game…

I don’t think having them adjusted properly to improve player experience is unreasonable. And that’s the point most comments are pointing towards. Simply saying “yeah it’s flawed but it’s end game, so oh well” is not even a reason, let alone a good reason to justify?

Yeah there is a lot of… Really rough combos in the lower section because they didn’t really quite thing the pools through…

I think the main gist seems to be that, different people play in different strokes. Even on the fourms itself, we can see that a lot of players tend to assume build orders for their personal playstyle and mode. Some players like to speedrun and complete a run as possible while using self inflicted advantages.
To them, the perfect build might not be the build that works well 99% of the time but slowly, but a build that only works 5% of the time, but when it does, leads to a new record speedrun solo. Even if their game history is just like quitting or abandoning/repeating 50 games in a row for the PERFECT comp.

Others might want a build that can consistently clear the mode and carry their allies, and keep their units safe while having constant aggression and minimal human losses. No marines lost / No unit loss sc1 and sc2 runs were a thing, though before medics were a thing you couldn’t heal damaged 2/40 marines in sc1. I remember keeping supplies of injured 2 hp soldiers in the back or in bunkers to ‘save them’ while another person would recommend killing them for supply. XD. I like to be able to carry or hard carry a ally if needed but lean a bit away from killhogging and constantly heal their armies and open up their base for them. I also kinda find commanders where you mostly memorize one or two builds and repeat it over and over with mostly F2A combat ± occasional stim or mini heros repeatative, so i like leaning into Tychus comps where i can use Mind control bc/thor/carrier fleets just for fun, and the odd unit here and there to learn more about Amon’s tech abilities. (The amon Medivac for instance, has unlimited Boosters if it wants.

The amon Arbiter can give tychus teleports anywhere, or even teleport a ally. Some miner evacuation units used to have like ‘Debug BansheeAttack2, Bansheeattack3’ text written on them (but it’s been so long i can’t remember or know if they fixed it or not, etc. ). So what i enjoy are mostly chill games where i can make sure my ally constantly has something to do, and constant pushing and longer maps where there should always be something to do like Malwarefare or Part and parcel. Where you can have fun a little bit, but your ally can always help you push for parts, capture other towers or do bonuses etc. I also like getting better at multi piloting the odin as well as adding on Main crew abilities + yamatos + vision jump Vacs + spy with stolen units and occasionally run double healer so i can split my army into 3 groups. 1 Main group (Abilities outlaws), 2: P3 dogwalker odin set to solo assault points, assist ally pushes, assault seperate bases or capture seperate part and parcel points or defend a 2nd or 3rd gate or objective, etc. and 3: sometimes a nikara + 12-17 carrier/bc/odin fleet. Just there to help cap extra points on Malwarefare etc.

Other people too, all will have their own playstyles. As seen people will sometimes do self inflicted challenges like 12 workers, while another person on the polar end might think you’re bringing shame upon your family/throwing by intentionally making yourself weaker or vice aversa for not challenging yourself to it even if it makes a lvl 13 random tie with it. Most people seem to have a personal playstyle of what they enjoy.

Whether or not from running the fastest maps, keeping the most units and their allies alive, pushing with good mobility, self challenging themselves to complete the game on the lowest workers. etc.

But yeah, i think the good thing is, everyone seems to enjoy the mode they pick. Different strokes for different people. To be honest i was actually surprised more people didn’t play it as well. I just thought i was the only one. I do remember trying it out like 20 games in my first day and yeah not really enjoying the gameplay but completing the ones people stayed for. (Though like 20-30% of mutators people seemed to instaleave for).

Like Nova + Tychus Killbots. (Sacrifice like 15-30 workers on 90/100 supply commanders who had to pay like 1000 minerals a bot)
Diffusion + double edged Kerrigan + alarak. Enemy comp: Swarmlings + banelings.

I remember my ally just leaving on abathurs. Which i think is just stupid but i was told “abathurs are bad commander because he only makes 1 unit!! FFS ARE U TROLLING U !@#)(&!@##!@(*” (Brutalisks. Player was a 10-20 apm dehaka 800 Prestiege hero Unit only who averaged 90-150 kills per 300 of a ally.)"

As mentioned, there were also the times i had raynor allies who sat in nukes and did nothing the whole game. We completed it but. I just thought it was me mostly. I think it was more or less not being able to complete it, of the ones people stayed for, i only remember losing to a memorable first double edged zeratul Tychus encounter where the first grenade exploded tychus, and the first spin killed zeratul.

Going back now with better general knowledge, it’s easier going back but you still definitely need to experience the mutation to learn the interactions. What triggers what and is a good counter on paper that sucks. (Chainfire blaze, hit and run fires vs diffusion on paper when grenade didnt’ trigger. VS Blaze instantly self detonating every encounter. Whether it was chainfire or swarmlings was beyond me, but it seemed like a big tanky 1000 hp unit with chainfire could be a good diffusion swarmling answer. But sirius’s suicide turrets were. )

I think brutal+ definitely does change your interactions up as well as weekly mutations. But also at the same time i was surprised to. For my personal play i decided after lvl 90 there wasn’t any point tryharding for xp over fun, so i’d play whatever i found most fun and brutal was that. I actually remember quite a few missions that didn’t block completion, just didn’t really seem enjoyable. Most of the bad stuff zones are pretty ignorable. but when you combine concussive or fatal attraction, Being sucked into a slowmode / slug zone really kills the fun. It was more or less not viewing it as a mountain but more like a keyboard covered in sticky syrup and your little brother would randomly spam keys. Base brutal is more fun starcraft for me and i like spending my apm getting better at ability use, chainfires + main army + yamato medivac jumps or screwing around and assaulting multiple armies. Blizzard brutal+ games are just normal brutal games with more area denial.

Concussive + Fear + Short sighted is just my idea of a unfun game where a ally might instaquit or spend the game moving at 5 mph, while feared around the map by targets your commander might not even be able to see. etc. But yeah, it’s good to see what different people prefer. Just when i go into a game and i think i had a bad day with my ally 40 in a 800:40 mission where they were a lvl 2 p0 karax that wasn’t even topbarring their own base, i go and sometimes see a game in with someone i played for a brutation weekly or a brutal+ game… and sometimes when i just see like one mission repeated 3-17 times with losses and the same person. And have no information on if they were trying brutal +1-6 but see them failing weeklies like 3-17 times before a success. I just kinda go. “I think im good” lol, but then there are people who complete the same weeklies like 17 time or who enjoy that. And great for them! Different strokes, for different people right? But i was actually surprised how many it was. I thought it was just me tbh. I assumed like half of people not like 10-15% were brutal+ ers.
If i was purely after exp though i’d just do the karax tomato farm or void thrashing / lock and load most times haha. XD. But after 90, i just kinda play whatever i want lol. not in a rush for 900 but im surprised more people weren’t doing brutal+ to 900 tbh.

Only about 5 to 15% of people have finished leveling prestiges though so it’s still possible the B+ player base will grow.

I do a lot of offering to level people in B+ partly out of boredom but also partly as a way to introduce people to the mode and show them that its not too bad (most of the time).

Finally got to sit down and play some SC2 coop and jumped straight into this challenge. I’ll try to continue this run when I can but still on holidays so don’t have many opportunities to play. This also makes me feel super out of practise and not playing my best.

So far, 5 wins for 5 games. Here are my notes:

  • game 1: P1, TOTP, missile command, moment of silence. Stukov P0 ally, 546 kills to 1502 (how many missile kills?), all bonuses, protoss air
  • game 2: P1, cradle, evasive maneouvers, inspiration, long range, all bonuses, zerg air, nova P1 ally, 514 kills to 1049 kills
  • game 3: P3, void launch, barrier, diffusion, photon overload, swann P1 ally 243 to 135 kills
  • game 4: P1, vermillion problem, twister, concussive attacks, long range, swann P1 ally, 229 to 327 kills, (disruptors suck, caused some indecision)
  • game 5: P1, TOTP, orbital strike, evasive maneuvers, purifying beam, zagara P3 ally, 800 to 782 kills (bad start)

Feel a bit out of practise in general so only doing WW+Ascendants. However this can be too slow on some maps especially if I can’t fast expand which is why I switched to P3 for a map but didn’t find it as fun.

Still waiting for the Double Edge and/or Fatal Attraction game.

Will update when I can do the other 5.

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Alarak

  • game 1: P1, TOTP, missile command, moment of silence. Stukov P0 ally, 546 kills to 1502 (how many missile kills?), AB (all bonuses), protoss air
  • game 2: P1, cradle, evasive maneouvers, inspiration, long range, AB, zerg air, nova P1 ally, 514 kills to 1049 kills
  • game 3: P3, void launch, barrier, diffusion, photon overload, swann P1 ally 243 to 135 kills, AB
  • game 4: P1, vermillion problem, twister, concussive attacks, long range, swann P1 ally, 229 to 327 kills, (disruptors suck, caused some indecision), AB
  • game 5: P1, TOTP, orbital strike, evasive maneuvers, purifying beam, zagara P3 ally, 800 to 782 kills (bad start), AB
  • game 6: P3, MO, missile command, scorched earth, Stettman P1 ally, 1500 to 700 kills, protoss temple, AB
  • game 7: P3, RtK, Temporal Field, Fatal Attraction, Mineral Shields, Zagara P3 ally, 311 to 299 kills, protoss shadow disruption (MOST ANNOYING YET!), AB
  • game 8: LOSS, P3, MO, eminent domain, purifier beam, Going Nuclear, Stukov P3 ally, Machines of War (first noob ally but build order was screwed up by keyboard malfunction)
  • game 9: P3, LnL, Aggressive Deployment, Missile Command, Stukov P3 ally, protoss air (different stukov thank god!), 257 to 288 kills, AB
  • game 10: P3, Scythe, Slim Pickings, Temporal Fields, Zagara P3 ally, protoss shadow disruption, 452 to 407 kills, AB
  • game 11: P3, ME, scorched earth, hardened will, mengsk P2, 1182 to 735 kills, AB (soloed 2nd and 3rd ships while ally did bonuses)
  • game 12: P3, Cradle, Hardened Will, Walking Infested, stettman P1, AB, 699 to 1560 kills
  • game 13: P3, MO, Fear, Walking Infested, Zaratul P2 ally, 1493 to 2271 kills, AB
  • game 14: P3, Void Launch, Power Overwhelming, Temporal Field, Zagara P3 ally, 355 to 975 kills, AB
  • game 15: P3, RtK, Purifying Beam, Long Range, Walking Infested, Karax P3 ally, 1710 to 828 kills, AB
  • game 16: P3, CoC, Purifying Beam, Evasive Maneuvers, Concussive Attacks, Raynor P2 ally, 252 to 531 kills, AB
  • game 17: P3, LnL, fatal attraction, concussive attacks, scorched earth, Stukov P3 ally, AB, 375 to 457 kills (ANNOYING COMBO!)
  • game 18: LOSS, P3, Malwarfare, Aggressive Deployment, Infested Outbreak, Tychus P3 ally (ally left between 1st and 2nd lock, I soloed but lost on final lock)
  • game 19: P3, DoN, self destruction, Purifier Beam, zerg Explosive Threats, Nova P3 ally, 607 to 1053 kills, AB
  • game 20: P3, OE, short sighted, scorched earth, barrier, Terran Dominion Battlegroup, Artanis P0 ally, 416 to 150 kills, 1 bonus (worked a little hard for this one)

Out 20 games:

  • 90% win rate in B+1 as Alarak, only particularly annoying mutation is Fatal Attraction
  • to get from 90% to 95% or 100% felt much more about my ally than mutations or commander (though I could have won the MO map solo if my multitasking had been a little bit better)
  • 50% of the time got more kills (not an exact measure but it’s something)
  • no Double Edge in 20 games (I actually wanted this to try out Slayers again)
  • different comps of pure Ascendant, Ascendant+Destroyer, pure Destroyer or Ascendant+WW (which with P3 I’m adding much later than I would when playing P1)
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What was the purpose of these tested games and win rates? A little confused? Just that Alarak does fine on B+?


For some context from my perspective. Friend asked me to play DoN with Void Rift, Transmutation, and Magmines. Said he tried with another friend as HH with Alarak and couldn’t make it.

So we tried it together. And we won with him as HH P1? (Didn’t pay attention) and me as P3 Alarak 12w.

What does it show? To me nothing. I’ve no idea what B+ level that is suppose to be. [Edit check: apparently this is above B6+, Void Rift 10, Transmutation 7, Magnificent 4, total 21… 19-20pts for B6, 2-4 mutators]. They are all just a puzzle to be solved with the COs you are given.

What was the strategy? Same old strategy as all DoN. You Precision Strike structures as HH, aim for pre-N3 completion, and the other (Alarak) defend. (Only difference is you can’t actively clear as the defender due to mutators.) He did more work than me for sure (but hard to cover rifts, 2-sides with 12w econ). Game was just more annoying clean ups as always with Void Rifts…

How did you find Alarak compared to others like Dehaka, Kerri, etc?