Blizz devs really did H&H dirty on their prestige options

Just reading this in a certain way is amusing… It seems like Death Effect isn’t working, but perhaps Death Effect is killing itself, which means it really is effective? :smiley:

P2/Wing Commanders is definitely viable. It’s also my fave Prestige of their (although only a small margin). BCs ‘only’ cost 1000/640/10. It ain’t cheap, but it’s a good value. For me, I make plenty of Hellions and Hellbats to start off (you’ll want them anyways for the Significant Others bonus), and spam MM (Mag Mines) at key chokepoints, enemy wave crossroads, and on top of yours and your ally’s buildings (enemies that want to attack them are at least greeted by a “welcoming committee” of MM). Make Turrets for additional AA. Defense, or out in the field if you’re holding a spot

You get your first BC soon enough. If you time/“build order” it correctly, you can start building your 1st BC when your Fusion Core gets done. Then that’s when the real fun begins :slight_smile: However, make sure your BC doesn’t get overcome, as they need a decent mass to be sustainable.

P3/“bomberman|bomberwoman” isn’t strong, but it’s still fun and decent. I’ve known some who don’t even bother making SFP (strike fighter platforms), so that wouldn’t have any effect on them anyways. It’s not “needed” (for regular and Mutations), but the “fun” part does come where on longer missions (say, over 20 minutes), you can get 15 of them. It’s just fun to bomb OE trains and their waves into submission, from afar, and only have to deal with a husk of a convey by the time they pass by your base.

If nothing else, they had the decency to make this prestige at the 3rd level. For folks like Stukov, you need to get through his P2 tough exterior to get to the chewy, tasty, inner-core of P3.

In fact, you get yourself in trouble (the map plays a role too) if you do this sort of thing with other COs…
Only going Carrier with Fenix or Karax
Only going straight for BCs with Raynor or Mengsk

P2 HH reminds me of P3 Raynor. I think the prestige theme throws people off, and they play sub-optimally.

Mainly? You have to make ground units. The prestige might be about air units, but pure air on most maps is going to be an uphill battle (if not a total disaster). On any map where you have to defend, without ground units or something to draw the attention of ground-only enemies, they run right passed you and attack the thing you’re supposed to be defending. It’s not even always obvious this is happening, strangely.

P3 Raynor needs siege tanks. They siege and unsiege really fast for a reason. Use it.

P2 HH needs hellbats. They’re tough, reasonably fast, and cheap. And they counter a fair amount of stuff that would be running right passed your air units. Also, you’re gonna float 70 billion minerals if you don’t make 'em.

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I’ve seen people get away with no to few ground units for his P3.

However, for his P2, definitely make bio, as that’s still his “bread and butter”.

Or Marines, given they’re still mineral only so they’re a good stopgap before overwhelming air force is ready and available. Especially with Raynor’s mineral cheat it’s only a delay rather than a replacement like gas units would be.

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It certainly can be done, on several maps. LL, PP, VL, CoD, etc. Maps where you’re not defending anything in particular. But on maps like DoN, ME, MO, Mal…oh I get so angry when P3 doesn’t make ground lol. 5 BC’s aren’t going to take out 75 zerglings before they take a massive bite out of a harvesting bot.

Yah whatever works for yah. I favor tanks because they’re the hard counter to most situations where you need that kind of defense. 10-12 tanks with air support are excellent defense; marines are…fine. But marines will certainly slow down your air development less, so there’s merit there.

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It’s all a matter of timing. And that timing is a direct result of build order, experience, and skill.

Coop is a much different game when you have those 5 BCs at x min versus 2min earlier. Similarly a 4min BC versus no BC until 7min paints a significant difference.

Undeniably the point of defending mass number of ground only enemies (such as mass lings, infested, incubator mutator, etc.) put BCs at a disadvantage. Those are often mitigated enough in a similar fashion by having ‘earlier’, ‘more’ BCs. As coop scale non-linearly, having early advantage and ending mission early often solve this issue.

In that same perspective, this is also why these kind of strategy fail (and more often on longer maps). Therefore we see it more on Mal, MO, ME, etc. especially when mutators are involved (as they generally tend to lengthen a mission by design rather than by difficulty).

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The answer here is that Banshees with AoE upgrade will destroy any swarming ground giving time to mass enough BCs.

On MO for example Scourge will only arrive for the 9:30 and 10:00 waves which the Hyperion can handle or by then should have enough BCs (just need to Warp away after soaking a few Scourge).

Banshees are actually really good for these early problems.

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As another thread makes the point though, Banshees are kind of terrible. Their rate of fire means enemies like roaches, zealots, and marauders are going to soak some hits and still have the opportunity to fire upon the thing you’re protecting. They’re also unreasonably expensive and made of tissue paper.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything BTW, if it works for you, great. I’m just making the general point that air comps will almost always benefit from some ground units, and siege tanks are one of the best ground units in the game. If your commander gets them, why not make a few.

In the other thread, I tried to argued both ways for Banshees with some gameplays. Banshees are decent, but are edged out by other options, like

Raynor: siege tanks (p2) > banshees (most of the time)
Nova: siege tanks or liberators >= banshees.

Nova’s banshees are actually not bad, forgot how good they are with the AOE rockets, but Nova’s siege tanks have mines. You could throw a few mines into ground comp and make them disappear. If Nova’s tanks did not have mines it would be her Banshees > her tanks in my opinion. And her liberators are … liberators.

Raynor’s banshees are made of paper unfortunately and are expensive.

The only time I would go bio build for P3 Raynor is faced with zerg air (scourge). Mass marines is really strong against zerg air.

I like to go pure bio as P3 every few rotations or so. It works fine but the stark difference between the cost to unit max timings is significantly different.

Can’t say I do a whole lot of transition from ground to air. However, that’s a preference thing. It provides a clear safety net for doing the transition but does take away the reward of some benefits. This isn’t surprising or different than on ladder.

If you cut corners then you take risk to be vulnerable. In coop though, this is forgiving as Amon isn’t dynamically checking your build. So it comes down to knowing the flow and build order. On ladder though, you get scouted and could get punished hard for it.

Is P3 really that bad? I haven’t played H&H much, but I imagine it would be like Mengsk nuke only. Sort of like a meme build with a weak early game but strong late game + bonus points for style. Arguably, it might be viable against certain mutations?

In a 20+ minute game against specific compositions and against specific mutators P3 can be made to work and in some extreme edge cases it might even be a good choice.

Anything under 20 minutes though will normally give more strike fight platform strikes by any of the other H&H prestiges.

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It is THAT bad, indeed.

I’d get it if it was like a 20-30% or something increase. Maybe even not allow the player to make BCs. But the x2 increase was just lazy from their end. It’s better to play P0 and just rush to 10 platforms. though personally I never build more and need more than 5.

Could have disabled the supply drop effect on the depots or something.

But yeah, it’s very counter productive for it to cost so much more. But it’s not like it’s an instant loss or anything.

We’d want some combination of buffs. Off the top of my head…
—make SFP 50% cheaper
—SFP cost only 1 supply, not 2
To go even further, make the first 10 cost 0 supply.

P2 would need bigger cost reduction.

P3 rework needed… perhaps each bomber platform now has 3 bomber charges, and costs only 50% more compared to default.
To be honest the biggest drawback of P3 is that you are not picking P1 and P2.

With the fix to the mastery, P1 feels pretty dang competitive overall. P2 feels like it needs a touch more (more call in the fleet power?).

P3, P3 still feels like it would need a rework over just more platforms.

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A buff to platform damage would make it more worthwhile at double the price.