Been Watching SC2 WoL Tournament VoDs from 2010

I’m just concerned for you. Your recent posts make me wonder about your well being. <3

Not about player skill.

Not about player skill.

Not about player skill.

Not about player skill.

Not about player skill.

Not about player skill.

:man_shrugging:

20 charsssssssssssss

Am I talking about comparative skill levels of players between 2010 and 2021?

No?

Then why do you think it is germane to this conversation?

just in case you don’t understand the context of the conversation…

Diogenex argues that the “slower pace” is a product of players being “bad and slow”.

Maybe that’s true in comparison to the rate at which they play the game today, in that they are “better” after a decade of experience and therefor can perform actions faster, have a better grasp of how to implement strategies, and can react to the perceived strategies of their opponents. I don’t dispute that players get better over time as they gain experience BUT this statement is the result of a dramatic misinterpretation of what I meant by “slower paced”.

You all are reacting to a perceive slight to your own predilections. Rather than have a conversation about the value of a “faster” or “slower” paced game, you all immediately dive into a variety of defense mode reactions to this perceived offense.

You all need to chill the Fudge out.

So after avoiding my question twice now, I’ll answer it for you, “no, you must not tell me thinks that I find emotionally difficult.”

Yeah but I’m not having a conversation about what you seem to wan to have a conversation about so :man_shrugging:

Feel free to start a topic about how “Bad and Slow” players were in 2010 compared to those same players in 2021.

Here, I’ll help you out…

You don’t have to respond to me. Don’t act as if this is about you not wanting to have this discussion.

Physician heal thyself.

Most of that it IS about player skill. Meta develops because of players skill increasing over time. Do you want a slow pace game?, go play at current Bronze/silver league, you will find the same level of randomness and slow gameplay. Heightened excitement?, maybe because you don’t know about the game and do not know the outcome before the fight, that led to the infamous false hype which many people hated, people seeing a terrible fight, the caster hyping the fight and the viewers thinking ‘‘come on dude, that was an onesided fight’’. I remember you, that the beautiful fungals thing was an actual meme, people cringed every time, people knew they were broken and ended fights, yet casters still hyped that one click moments.Nowadays casters usually hype when it’s needed, they don’t hype a missplay or a throw.0

And the part about E-sports and the players being obsessed with meta, that’s pure nonsense, that has nothing to do with e-sports, and more about the accesibility of learning tools, like forums, vods, replay services, everyone want to win more, so they look for the best available strategies ,nobody outside the op player is gonna search for builds thinking they are going to be a star, they just want to win more and gitting gud.

And the events…they are still the same as always (excep now online tournaments due to corona), Homestory cup was a sucessful format because it was the only different tournament, the rest follow the same formula. I don’t see what they have now that they didn’t have in the past and why are they unfun now due to e sports compared to tournaments from the past. And to be honest, many tournaments are better now because you have regional/personal streams so you can watch many other plays and different casters, if that’s e sports, then I love e sports.
I’m sure that you can’t explain that e sport thing, the same you can’t explain your ideas about the game being slower by design without considering players skill.

We still don’t know what do you really mean with slower pace. The game was the same through wol and I showed you that the gameplay became faster as soon as players got better.

The only real change to make the game faster was the worker start, and in the end it just made the game 1,3s faster, not a lot considering that people used that time doing workers, except cheeses, every build started on the current amount of workers, and tbh, it only impacted cannon rush, the rest of the cheeses were similar as always.

All I see is you making vague and wrong statements, and then saying we are wrong and that you meant other thing, but never explain your idea other than changing the matter or spamming emojis.

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Okay… sure… but how does that relate to the context of the original post?

Okay, I’m genuinely curious… what is your mental leap that relates what I was talking about in the OP to what I want my experience to be as a player?

What does any of this have to do with the topic? it’s like you are reading some other topic and then writing a reply to it in this one. I have no clue how any of these comments are a reply to the OP in any way what so ever. Please explain this to me.

Well, they clearly are.

The metagame is just the most recent and prevailing patterns of strategies. The general esports fan, however, use that word ad nauseam but really just mean “the most idealized and efficient way to play the game” and have a tendency to ramble on and on about it as if it’s the word of god. This is what I’m referring to when I say “obsessed with meta”.

Are they? Did you go to any of the MLG events in person? Did you go to events in the earlier 2000s or any game tournament prior to esports becoming a pop culture phenomenon? If so, you don’t see how things have changed from grass roots to big business and how that has changed the events in significant ways?

Compare the map layouts and the units themselves to those in LotV. Tell me that you don’t see how the game has changed over the years to provide for a faster paced game. Do you not remember all that talk in 2016 about how the design was shifting toward harassment to better provide more moments of excitement for the enjoyment of spectators. That they wanted more spectacle for viewers to get excited about. More moments for the casters to scream into their microphones over.

You never asked. You just got triggered.

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This is a circular argument, you make an statement, people argue against it, you say we are wrong, we asked about it, you never give a direct answer and start again with the original vague argument.
I would like to know your arguments, but I’m sure that spamming clown emojis instead of discussing using ideas have reduced your arguing capacities, so I will leave it here.

No, I never went to one of thes events IRL, there was no events here until DH Valencia, which I didn’t visited. I’m saying my experience from the viewer’s perspective, I see the same kind of production, the same kind of casters, the same kind of interviews…nothing looks different because the E-sport monster transformed it. When I started watching, I was early 2011, there was already casting desks, interviews on stages, that does not look like grassroots events, grass root is when everyones is at a LAN even the casters and the prizepools being rather small like cheesadelphia or homestorycup, I remember people saying that the viewers of early MLG reached 800k viewers, and there was two streams, that sounds far from grassroot.

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SC2 used to get viewer counts in the millions when it first came out. And for years afterwards. It’s the game that started Twitch as we know it today.

If only, by the light of all that is good in heaven, you were arguing in the context of what I stated. But you are not. You’re arguing on some strange tangent… no it’s not even a tangent. Your arguments are only related to what I posted in that they both are in some small way related to Starcraft 2. But that’s about as far as the relationship between what I’m saying in the OP and your replies.

:no_mouth:

Then how the heck would you know?

Okay so lets stick to this aspect. You’re saying that you don’t see any difference in the production value, the emphasis, the hype. That it’s all the same soup and sandwich?

You don’t see the subtle transformation of esports from a grass roots video game-centric vibe to that of big business trying to emulate down to a T that of a major league sports broadcasts? Do you watch sports? Maybe you just aren’t paying enough attention and are laser focused on different aspects of the events as a spectator.

:man_shrugging:

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JustinTV.

There was one before JustinTV as well but I forget what it was called. I don’t think it exists anymore. There was also YouTube at the time but less so for live streaming.

Because we have no clue of what are you talking about, everything we say, is apparently not the topic, you should really start knowing what you write or at least exposing your ideas properly instead of emojis as I said, but after all this nonsense argument I doubt your ideas are right or acceptable, after many comments we have not seen any glimpse of actual discussion or idea direction. For sure I have had more productive discussions with my parrot, at least when he makes sounds I know what he means.

Back then, everyone sucked at the game. Even pros. Going back to 2010 WoL, a current day Plat 1 player could probably win a GSL.

That’s how inefficient everyone was. I also think if we went back there knowing what we do now, MMM and Infestors would get so abused that we’d see different nerfs happen, resulting in a very different HotS and LotV meta play out.

I think you were looking for this topic…

MMM? lmao everything but MMM was OP. Blueflame was far better, ghosts were far better, ravens were far better, siege tanks did 60 damage against anything, rax before depot was the best cheese. Roaches were 1 supply. Vortex won games with a few archons, you could warp in HT and cast storm.

I’ve got to admit, it was way more fun than cannon rush, that’s for sure. What better “gotcha” moment is there than finding out someone just built a base in your base.

Bring back Funday Mondays IMO.

Warping zealots inside T’s base with pylons doing the korean 3 gate.

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