Artanis P2... w/o Warp Speed

I type ‘more than’ in a sense that if you pit one zealot at 33% or 50% extra against two zealots at 0% extra the outcome might be different than if you pit them against a zealot with 34% or 51%, or rather 10 zealots vs 30, sometimes the numbers add up in a way that it is much more relevant, if you go into breakpoints often these scenarios have a lot of meaning. If you think about it, the next one I might list was 75%+, rather than something like 66%+. Something from world of warcraft times at lvl 19 or 20 you might have breakpoints like 12% critical hit rate or up to 15%, the extra few percentage points come from variations in the gear you have available, there might be an extra agility on one piece with slightly less crit chance, etc. You want a build that maximizes the potential gain for whatever it is you are best at. The different between 12% and 15% here is a crit after roughly 6 attacks vs 8 attacks. That might not seem like anything, but with a high agility score as opposed to a low agility score you may find even the lower value of 8 attacks can outpace the damage output. Furthermore your crits are adding to your abilities damage which can be more influential in some burst combos as opposed to persistent dps.

I think someone who wants raw energy and cooldown rate, such as OP has given us information that they like cooldown and energy in reavers/archon, they can gain more benefit from the cooldown/regen mastery than the warp in speeds. Most of the time reavers or archons are not being warped in the numbers that things like goons or zealots are, so the benefit from warp speed mastery is very nullified for those units, and for archons they get the bonus energy after using storms in templar form so the warp in boost is less relevant.

I don’t know what CDs would help stack up with reavers CD rate, they are 8 seconds and

Energy Regeneration and Cooldown Reduction 1.5% per point 45% maximum
Speed Increase for Warped in Units 2% per point 60% maximum

from starcraft2coop “If you use a lot of Archons in your build, or rely on unit abilities like Zealot Charge or Reavers, you may want to consider having the Energy Regeneration mastery. Otherwise, the Speed Increase is beneficial.”

Sc2 coop guide isn’t considering that you’d play P2. Yes, P2 with no Warp in mastery is still better than P0 but P0 is a very low bar in terms of relative power to other commanders (except in some mutations and with certain allies where Artanis can shine).

Whichever army you go you should be doing Warp Speed mastery and doing your best to abuse the F out of it to power up your army for every difficult fight. Personally, I find it synergises perfectly with Tempest.

The best way to really assess what would benefit OP (or anyone here posting about their choices) is to simply take a look at their replay. Post one and instantly we can see if CDR/E is better or WSpeed is instead.

These theoretical optimization splits are for player who have a very good mastery of Artanis. AND that they follow a certain standard flow (rather than for example taking 20+ min on RtK, or past N3 on DoN). Frankly, the way some of these posts are reading seem to suggest otherwise. I think simply posting a replay would be easy to gauge where said player’s skill is at (thus seeing what benefits more despite all their preferential talks).

Well you can say that and yes I agree, the reason I say overthinking it is because you need to consider yourself more than others. You see others here and elsewhere saying something along the lines of “but if” its not good enough for them its not good enough for you but playstyles differ, while I like a phoenix comp others do not.

I don’t think the whole mastery debate will lead anywhere other than warp in mastery is just better, it just is during that 30 seconds, and an optimal player uses that 30 seconds more or less throughout the entire game. That isn’t to say there are not strategies that could be optimal without warp in mastery.

Here are some of my replay files, I have some 3000 replay files now, I’ve posted a build order on reddit for a gas first opener, I have a solid understanding of artanis with other openers and build orders, but these are more or less my build orders. Oblivion express from earlier today before my post, yes I played well, that build order was for archon specifically, not gas first. Others I will pick from older files chosen somewhat randomly to hopefully give some variance since I can zip file them.

I think Artanis is vastly underrated commander, often cited as one of the weakest. Not even close. The global shield and death prevention are not to be underestimated, the OE fenix partner thinks fenix is overpowered, slightly yes but in combo with artanis, as with other commanders, is where they truly shine. Artanis has the absolute best in my opinion supporting mechanics with warp in army reinforcements and global shields. If you understand how to use Artanis well, mainly his powerful solo-objective eliminating or wave clearing ultimate AoE calldown nuke, better than any other single cooldown outside of Raynor/Dehaka/Mensk/stukov ultimate units and arguably time stop vorazun. Using that cooldown proficiently makes the timer on the side of the mission irrelevant most of the time.

In my opinion you have either my playstyle, there is a non-stop aggression from artanis once you tech into whatever build order/unit comp you are going for, an aggression that is almost unstoppable by amon outside of scythe of amon. Or you have the sit back and macro playstyle where you want cannons, eco, all the tech, your lategame unit of choice, and the luxury of your ally carrying you. Artanis is listed as a support character in my book but supports are the ones who offer the opportunity of the kill to you and if you don’t take it no one else will but that support.

http://storenow.net/my/?f=3fb48785159a81a0306bf725d3af2b8b

Mallos

Commander Level: 15

Ascension Level: 197

Selected Difficulty: Brutal

Selected Prestige: 0) Hierarch of the Daelaam

Masteries

Shield Overcharge 0
Guardian Shell 30
Energy Regen 4
Warp Speed 26
Chrono Boost 30
SOA Energy 0

Here’s the link to the tested rate in-game (MM’s DoN Zerg). The test ran against 15/15, 30/0, and 0/30… as well as a 30/30 to demonstrate all energy rates:

https://file.io/did15SC1lSvL

The results are as follows for 30sec (default energy 50):

  • 30/0: 24-25 energy gained, 0.8 to 0.833
    • (as wiki suggested 0.815… fairly close, as we can’t measure 0.1energy in-game.)
  • 15/15: 26-27 energy gained, 0.866 to 0.9
    • (make sense, as base rate is 0.571 energy/s. 15pts is 15 x 1.5% = 22.5 or factor of 1.225. And 15pts warp-in is 15 x 2% = 30% or factor of 1.3. Math: 0.571 x 1.225 x 1.3 = 0.909. 0.909 x 30 = 27. Again, very close, so far so good, all checks out.)
  • 0/30: 27-28 energy gained, 0.9 to 0.933
    • (not going to do the math, especially when @Undead already provided actual values. The in-game measure is roughly 27-28, which again isn’t much different.)
      *30/30 with mastery load/cheat: 38-39 energy gained, 1.266 to 1.3
    • (0.571base x 1.45 x 1.6 = 1.32. 1.32 x 30 = 39.74. Once again, very close to actual values.)

Overall, it is clear that the time, in fact, scales in Warp-in as suggested by @Rick absolutely applies.

What this demonstration tells us is that Cooldown/Energy Mastery only benefit in the very very very long term. And that long term is again 75 energy every 5 min per HT. Strictly in P2, where you can tele-field to re-apply Warp-in Mastery, depending on the mastery split (anywhere from 5/25, 10/20, 15/15, 5/25, or 0/30) you'll always gain more energy than 30/0... as long as you're using the tele-field.

In practice, even when ‘long term’ is applied, this amounts to insignificant difference that only the best of the best Artanis players would be able to discern (as they aren’t wasting, they are optimizing, their macro/micro is so on point that this would make an actual difference). For the rest of us scrubs, anyone claiming it makes a difference is simply lying.

On a very side note, this again exemplifies why Warp-in Mastery is a generally better choice. Again, unless as Artanis you’re playing Reaver all the time and only using Reavers, it seems the MORE points into Cooldown/Energy the LESS benefit OVERALL (I emphasize OVERALL to all units, all strategies, on all maps, mutations, against all compositions) the player is gaining.

It is not a time scale modifier. They deliberately changed it from a time scale multiplier to a direct stat multiplier because modifying time reduced the duration of everything (including the warp-in buff itself).

It’s the same for Raynor’s droppod boost and Time Stop (and i think the topbar Chrono Boost). They used to modify the time scale but now modify appropriate stats instead.

Fair, bit of a shame cause if people couldn’t tell I find that stuff amusing to think about. Ahh well.

This is some pretty good info and opens up using energy based units a bit more as P2 with Max Warp in mastery. Thanks everybody!

Thanks so much for the info, testing, and calculation!

So it’d appear that even if skill isn’t an issue, Regen/CD mastery and Warp-Speed mastery provide near identical amount of energy regen. And due to Regen/CD mastery benefit some units more than others, Warp-Speed mastery provides a more universal benefit overall.

Not to mention, the time one really needs CD reduction is in combat, which P2 can provide immediate buff, and repeatable if necessary. The only prolonged combat (10 seconds) are within the defense/escort missions, which as Fearr wrote, probably benefit Reaver the most.

I guess this solves the question about P2 neat and clean. Perhaps the Regen/CD mastery would fine a better home in P1.

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It was confirmed in this thread that Warp Mastery increases energy regen as well as attack speed and movement speed but what about cool down reduction for abilities?

I’m going on an educated guess and say no. And it’s purely based on observation of Reavers. With the Warp-in buff, they shoot very quickly all their scarabs, causing that arsenal to drain even more quickly.

Although, I wouldn’t mind if someone found this out with some tests haha.

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I’m still trying to figure out if Reaver attack is an attack or an ability like Oracle. Wait, Oracle’s is an attack that can be turned off and uses energy… Protoss is weird.

So I played a regular game B+2 Artanis with a friend and we got ME with Power Overwhelming and Tornadoes so I was a bit distracted but I managed to do a test with 2 Tempests, 1 with Warp Haste and 1 without though part way through the Disintegrate cooldown I did refresh warp haste on them.

Times I got were:

  • Ship A: 15:34 disintegrate, no warp haste
  • Ship B: 15:38 disintegrate, warp haste
  • Warp haste applied at 16:17
  • Ship B: Disintegrate available at 16:41
  • Ship A: Disintegrate available at 16:46

Certainly neater ways I could have done this test but it is clear that Warp Haste does reduce cooldowns which I think actually makes P2 the strongest Artanis Prestige.

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Mmm I don’t think so lol. But the test certainly shows the warp-in affects ability time it seems.

Essentially for the 90sec cooldown (without mastery), your both tempests pretty much each had 72sec (A) and 63sec (B) cooldowns respectively.


Did you have any points into cooldown mastery at all?

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No, full points in Warp Mastery.

Sorry, to be clear, Warp Haste was applied to both ships at 1617. It was only before that that 1 ship had Warp haste and the other didn’t.

  • Ship A: 72 seconds cooldown, benefited from 29 seconds of Warp Haste.
  • Ship B: 63 seconds cooldown, benefited from 47 seconds of Warp Haste.

Which I think lines up?
IF:

  • 90 second base cooldown
  • Ship A has 1/3 of cooldown reduced by 60%: 72 seconds
  • Ship B has 1/2 of cooldown reduced by 60%: 63 seconds

Now, my numbers are a second or so off either way but that could easily be observation error.

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Right, assuming negligible errors. It would mean that Warp-in Mastery applies some but not as much as Cooldown Reduction Mastery.

To me, the conclusion is the same though. Warp-in Mastery is a great option for vast majority of the cases, while Cooldown Mastery has few specific applications. Essentially very non-competitive (as was discussed extensively).

I think this just further adds to the benefits of Warp-in Mastery. Kind of like another piece of evidence. Cherry on top of the whipped cream, so to speak.

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It just means it applies to all units so P2 isn’t just about attacking units (Dragoons, Tempests), energy based units (HT, Archons) but also cooldown based units (Reavers, Pheonixs, Zealots etc).

The crazy application is “if” you could have both masteries maxed at the same time. Question I’d wonder though is if the cooldown reduction would be multiplicative or additive?

It always did apply to all units. Reavers, Phoenix, and Zealots as you’ve given as examples benefit more so from the actual ‘Attack Speed’ boost than the side-effect ‘Cooldown Reduction’, as a result of Warp-in Mastery. Though I get what you’re trying to say.

Really not an “if”, you can simply apply Maguro’s mastery map (or simply turn both sets to 30/30. This is entirely possible and a known exploit. My guess is multiplicative, as it is generally that but again you are welcome to try it.

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I would wonder if with the 30/30 exploit if:

  • Reavers would actually have faster attack speed and scarab sustain than with P1. Not to say that the Reaver won’t necessarily run out of Scarabs due to the +60% attack speed.
  • Pheonix lifting might be close to parative (after considering cost differences).
  • High Templar Psistorms might be close to parative (after considering cost differences).

Obviously not to say that that P1 can’t also benefit from 30/30 but it, along with P3, doesn’t benefit early as much as P2 does.

What’s that? Looked both into a regular dictionary and urban dictionary websites, and didn’t find it.