A pure speed upgrade that gives more base movement speed than what Charge provides.
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Ive been saying this since they first nerfed the adept and buffed charge. Like in the beginning of lotv it made sense because adepts were stupidly strong and no one made zealots. But then they had it in a good spot but for some reason went ‘lets push it over the edge’ and they nerfed the adept even more and buffed charge even more. And now the adept is the protoss reaper and has no purpose outside the early game. And instead of a micro based harass unit we have an a move based harass unit.
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We’re missing the point; the change that’s up is NOT a nerf to the full power of zealots, but just to how long until they reach full power.
So, the question I’m asking is; Is that timing in between when charge and the +8 damage finishing, too strong?
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Any Teran whose happy about the fact they are nerfing Zealots because he’s sick of chargelots warping in his main and destroying his production before he can count to 3 (I was one of these for a moment when I read the patch) should think twice and realize the proposed change doesn’t deal with this problem at all just delays it a bit. I think everyone would be happier if the damage on impact would just be reduced to +4 and everything else would stay the same.
Wait until this change is implemented in the game. Then you will see how fast people change there mind about this change.
A.K.A ZEALOT STILL OP
XD
I’d argue this is good. Terran 2 base allins are kinda busted and there’s so many of them…Terran plays more like HotS Protoss than Terran in LotV.
To that end, why is it a problem if Protoss can deny most 2 base allins?
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Yes.
Just watch this game. At 7:32 he shows income graph, notice how much ahead Protoss is economy wise, yet Protoss army is also more powerful and Terran can’t do any damage.
At 8:27 he shows income graph again, and explains that this income “mountain” disparity is what he is going to abuse to kill his terran opponent.
He also explains how poorly he fight (walked straight into WM, all Colossus atacking sensor towers instead of army, upgrades not ready), yet Terran suffered catastrophic damage and was defeated by follow up attack.
2-nd game is different build, but essentially the same scenario.
https://youtu.be/ZxbvJiJXvZ4?t=369
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Carriers . . . .
Rofl
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First the terran made a concious decision to power up on 2 bases and start building his cc at 6:40, you will get that income in any match up, it’s not the protoss economy that’s the problem, up to that point he bled units to the protoss without doing any damage.
Yolo ing first 2 mine in the protoss base without achieving anything it’s not just army loss, is the oportunity given to the protoss to walk his stalkers in front of your base to delay your push even more. Losing 2nd medievac it’s almost disastrous: At 8:22 He shows the units losts (I have no idea what he s talking about) but that’s deceiving because protoss losts some zealots, some probes, 1-2 pylon while having 3 bases and high mineral income and Terran lost gas heavy units while powering for a push
as for the fight, in my opinion his decision to pull scvs was more questionable than the protoss’s micro, lost them all without achieving anything because they were completly separated from the army and charging straight to colossus… personaly I think the WM would have been better with the army not up front (but this is up to debate) and waaay more, if the oponent is massing zealots, you mass WM. If you just follow blindly your plan without reacting to the opponents action then everything is broken
and 2nd game the only thing similar is the result, the games are completly diferent
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The most common 2 base all-ins at pro play are marine tank and marine tank raven.
The problem with 2 base not working is that protoss is denying it off their third Nexus. So it causes the match to snowball if the terran is not able to get enough damage done which results in suicide attacks.
Though mech might see dominate play in post-blizzcon patch so that might make most people forget about it.
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That’s kind of the point of an allin, though, no? If it fails it’s almost auto GG.
If the Protoss holds it off their 3rd then you probably need a earlier timing window to punish the Protoss.
Personally, my go to is a fastest possible stim timing with 4 rax, 3 reactor. Doesn’t win all the time but it does punch the Protoss in the nose pretty hard if they open standard.
Or you can just turtle up and go bio mine lib ghost tank. That composition is the most annoying and draining composition to vs as Protoss. One misclick and your army either dies or loses their shields.
I think your missing the point, protoss is getting away with an early greedy third and is stopping a terran 2 base allin. That should not be the case. Though the reason this started happening is because the brain dead cyclone that most agreed was stupid was removed. So now protoss has a lot more power in the early game which lets them secure an early lead, unless he loses all his probes to a window mine drop. Which is not a good or interesting way to balance a match-up
Would recommend 2 techlabs instead, concussive marauders tend to fair better in early game attacks than marines without stim and medivacs.
Turtleing on bio is a bad idea better off going turtle mech and transitioning into BCs with mech support since bio is terrible at defending compared to mech. Though mech has the weakness of being slower than the protoss deathball and being very slow to rebuild and reinforce which makes zealot warprism warpins a huge pain to deal with.
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But why is it an issue that Protoss can hold a Terran 2 base allin while taking their 3rd? If their 3rd is too hard to punish, then you punish them earlier or later, no?
This argument seems akin to saying “I DON’T LIKE VSING TERRAN BECAUSE THEY CAN WALL AND MY 12 POOL DOESN’T GET THERE BEFORE THE WALL FINISHES”.
Well, maybe you shouldn’t 12 pool Terran then lol?
Proxy Marauder, sure, but my go to is 4 rax, 3 reactor with stim. Protoss have a very, very hard time holding fast stim timings. Solves the problem of the safe 3rd that Protoss get.
You can go Bio and defend. You just need to not be silly about it. Get PFs, Tanks, Mines and Libs along with the bio. The bio is just there to zone, really. Then you can shift click drop multiple bases at the same time later on.
If you cannot see why a match-up that was balanced on both races being on similar econ suddenly shifting to one race being ahead on econ with not much else changing than their is nothing to say.
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I’d hardly call TvP balanced lol…but that’s besides the point.
Well, if you grab a 3rd nexus…that in itself is a change. SO yeah, not buying your logic here. If the Protoss 3rd is hard to punish, then you don;t punish it. You either allin earlier or you macro up.
Again, this is like complaining that Terrans have walls and those walls make cheese hard. Well, don;t cheese Terran then. Or if you do, get crafty.
Didn’t realize the only two rushes you knew involved zerglings and zealots…
Cannon rushes aren’t usually effective vs Terran unless they make mistakes. Everything else hits later than the timings and therefore works with the analogy as you’re not trying to beat the wall construction, but rather, have a crisp timing that doesn’t care about said wall. The wall being the Protoss 3rd in this case.
So instead of whinging that Protoss get a “free” 3rd, why not say “Okay, they took their 3rd and I don’t want to coin flip for a win…so I’m going to…macro!”.
Another analogy is like Zerg seeing the Terran 3rd being made into a PF> Sure, you could try to crack it open but that sounds expensive…instead why not just macro up? Throwing your resources willy nilly into a meat grinder usually ends bad, regardless of the MU mate.
Edit: Tempest/voidray shield battery cheese, stalker cheese, oracle cheese, and immortal warprism cheese don’t care about the wall. All of these do see occasional play in pro play.
Why would a zerg try to crack open a 3pf, are you talking about bronze leauge ladder?
I didn’t know that pro players lacked basic thinking.
You’ve got to read what I typed a bit more carefully. I addressed the 1st part already.
Second part; same logic for Terrans. Why are you trying to kill the Protoss 3rd when doing so is a massive, massive risk? That’s about as stupid as a Zerg trying to crack open a 3rd which was turned into a PF. Sure you might do it…but at what cost? You’d be better off just macroing or hitting with a timing attack earlier.
zergs gets a “free 3rd as well”, guess what: mules. They mine over a regular worker forcing other races to take extra base. Yeah, chronoboost is good, but that workers need somewhere to mine from, and 2 bases are saturated quite fast (both for P or T)
The problem with tvp 2 base all ins is that they wait too much (or are delayed by the protoss like in the upmentioned video and after that omg, protoss OP) and the early greed has more than enough time to pay for itself, don’t expect to punish at 7:00 a protoss who’s taking his 3rd at 4:10 ish… take example of PvZ: an adept all in starts way before when glaives are finished and you have just 6-7 adepts, they move out before you even drop gates… immortal sentries starts with 2 archons and a prism, or 2-3 oracles… something to keep them busy and force mistakes
or take special’s example, where he moves before he starts his stim https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OKSMjgyN4&feature=youtu.be&t=240
my best winrate with cannonrush is against T in masters… also, check printf or grimreaper
Happens in GM, ruff is always making a PF at his 3rd