A response to anti-zerg whine during IEM

TvZ I can at least understand the complaints, there were multiple series involving top players of their respective races that ended convincingly in zerg’s favour. Notable series include dark vs clem, ragnarok vs cure, and serral vs byun.

In game 1 of the latter series byun looked to be pulling serral apart with his continuous attack at serral’s third, but a last minute surround was able to route the attack and give serral the advantage. I think byun would have won this game if he didn’t lose his first 2 medivacs as most of his bio was in the red and medivacs out of energy when serral dived onto it. However the other 2 games did look a little stompy.

That said I don’t think it’s hopeless for the terran either: special was able to convincingly beat solar 2-1 with bio, battle mech has seen some wins, and of course a few degenerate bc builds are being utilized with mixed results. All in all I guess you could argue the hydra speed buff tipped the scales in zerg’s favour, and maybe even a lurker change should be made in consideration of the snipe nerf. Still let’s not forget the mental gymnastics used by terran players to try and convince us the cyclone changes were a nerf or those used by protoss players to claim 7% movespeed on hydras is gamebreaking while 11% movespeed on sentries is barely worth mentioning.

PvZ however does not have much of a leg to stand on, with the gasket exploding at dark, one of the top 2 zergs in korea for half a decade, beating creator, a ro16 toss infamous for choking under pressure. To all those saying dark of all players is a patch zerg or won by imbalance, some of dark’s results from HOTS include going 3-1 vs taeja, 3-0 vs maru, 3-0 vs life all on LAN. In the last year he’s gotten 2nd at gsl st and won DH valencia with a 3-2 win over hero and 4-3 win over maru. That’s not to say creator is a bad player, he got to semis in valencia before falling 3-1 to maru and lost 2-4 to rogue in gsl s1 last year, however dark is without a doubt the favourite here.

We can move to game analysis as well and the decisions justify the results. G1 not much to say, if toss doesn’t scout/deny the first nydus then they have to all-in from a disadvantageous position, even so it was pretty close. Dark lost g2 and g3 in deserved fashion, g2 his mass drop got crushed and retreating dropperlords/roaches cleaned up while his simultaneous attack on creator’s third was denied. G3 his cheese was poorly executed: mined out the wrong mineral fields and let 2 adepts get into his main without units in position. However creator was not exempt from mistakes either, letting 10 lings into his base that could have been prevented with a hold position stalker and getting 3 batteries biled down together. Dark arced his ravagers and picked off the frontal wall but in the end he’s a 1 base zerg against a 2 base toss.

G4 was creator’s game to lose, he got into an early lead with the double pylon block at dark’s natural that caused him to make 5 overlords at 3 minutes. But dark was also playing extremely safe anticipating an adept timing, maybe the lone phoenix tipped him off or he just knows how creator thinks, and that is exactly what creator did with 17 adepts hitting at 7 minutes that dark has been preparing for minutes prior. He had a spine at his third, a pack of lings, and both banes and roaches popping while creator’s attack was spotted a few seconds advance by creep on the south side. He could’ve hit a normal adept timing, he could’ve shaved a few queens and lings and pulled back, but he finished the second shade and trades out most of his army for 2 drones and a handful of ling/bane.

G5 dark had 2 drones idle for 15 seconds at 5 minutes in the game, meanwhile creator sees a 30+ baneling runby morphing on the other side of the map and sends a single colossus that is out of position to deal with it, ends up losing 18 probes. He eventually loses that colossus for free to roach ravager, his oracles to biles, and doesn’t remake the battery at his third or start one at his fourth. 2 minutes later he proceeds to get his fourth sniped by ling bane that he combats with 6 immortals and 1 colossus meanwhile the rest of his archons and colossi are battling the roach ravager at his 3rd, all the while he pumps out 3 phoenix when he already has a void to clear ovies. Even still he had a chance if he warped in sentries and had a battery at his natural or if he recalled 3s earlier in the base trade.

Jfc this of all series was not one that was decided by imbalance. Hell you could make a better claim for imbalance in astrea vs reynor but then again that would actually require some semblance of game knowledge from the fanatics that behave like stunted manchildren on reddit and twitch. And terran players, don’t go ruining my sympathies for you by complaining about gumiho’s 1 base all-in vs solar where he lost 3 tanks unnecessarily followed by both banshees.

/end rant

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TL;DR - stop talking, git gud, seethe

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cool story trash

All the incessant whining for the past 2 months and it’s looking to be either a tvp or tvt final with the last 2 zergs getting 3-0’d, who could have possibly foreseen metal leaguers would be wrong when they cry imba?

You clowns on here, reddit, twitch, got punished hard, eat :poop:

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Rogue is shaking his head.

Imagine writing a 2 pages essay about how zerg is not too strong and thinking anyone would care about last 2 zergs getting eliminated when there were 5/8 zergs in quarters, LOL.

Maybe if zerg didnt get buffed through the roof they had class players instead of mass players :> The (by far) better won. Except serral in the zvz, showing the only race a zerg should try fear is zerg.

For real serral getting eliminated nearly 2 times only because of zvz is the icing on the cake. He shouldnt have made it out of group stage and just got zvz’ed again. LOL

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Imagine crying in twitch chat 24/7 just for hero to 3-0 dark and reynor losing to time.

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They got outplayed hard and it was a blast to watch. They had everything on their side and still lost.

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Yea just like when creator lost 18 probes to a baneling runby he saw morphing on the other side of the map.

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The last posts in Tl and here have shown that a Terran (even Master+) have understanding problems in the subject of balance. and exposed himself as MMM-terran.
As it turned out, the changes were not dramatic. So many cry and hate for nothing from T players…

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Hahaha I’ll have to check out the tl thread, haven’t been there in years.

I assume you are better player than me, so please tell me how i can do dmg to zerg eco ? Batz failed to answer this question, so maybe you can give me some advices. I open 2 - 1- 1 every game (occasionally also double BC) and when zerg has really solid defense - overlords spread around their bases, spores spines, queens, handful of lings, banes prepared for my drops i literally cant do anything about that. Even if im trying to do multiprong drops, sometimes it is impossible to even kill few drones.

You as a zerg player do realize that beating Z is all about eco dmg. If you can kill +20 drones in between 5 and 7 min, snipe few queens, clear creep you have decent chance of beating the zerg or at least letting them get to the late game without 10 k minerals/gas bank. But if you cant ? What can you do ? Just turtle and hope to survive ?

I actually played terran macro on a fresh account a few seasons ago just to see if I could get to masters and had some trouble in ZvT. For me what helped was looking at uthermal’s video on maru’s 3cc 2-1-1. It’s a little apm intensive but he gets his third cc pretty quick and only delays the initial timing 2-1-1 hits by 40s or so.

I think the key to that build is he puts up double ebay and adds a second factory as he moves out, as well as lands the third, and then the armory about 15s later so he gets really fast 2fac mine production + good eco and all his infrastructure. After learning this build I hit m3 pretty quick.

It is true if you leave the zerg untouched for even a minute after your initial pressure they can quickly spiral out of control, in regards to 2-1-1 the only other advice I can offer is making sure every marine stays alive and not to lose those opening medivacs, ie shaving off a few extra lings is not worth a marine unless it guarantees you further damage.

If you want a cheese strat there were a few bc builds this tournament, in particular I think gumiho did a 1 + 2 bc build vs solar that looked strong. Battlemech with speed banshees seems to have some potential probably because new cyclones discourage mutas.

I will agree with you it seems pretty hard on the terran side once the zerg is maxed and building a bank, sending waves of ling bling + roach ravager/hydra, time/oliveira had a pretty good defense of these attacks vs reynor g4 with excellent siege tank spreads.

edit: a little more info for defense, you want to keep up some harass as they attack into you, especially with bfh if they’re ling heavy. I think byun did a big drop in serral’s main to snipe his pool before adrenal finished and time made good use of bfh in that g4 vs reynor.

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then your opponent was better.

if this is early/mid game i would say zerg has invested a lot in def. especially when I hear spine.
try to kill the overlords, then zerg is forced to pull them back. or risk getting sup-block.

Especially with 16marine drop. do not get tunnel vision. kill creep/ overlorad / creep-inject queens/ few ling. but as Lethe says, avoid losing marines.

Zerg usually wants to reach certain drone numbers. if zerg doesn’t know if drones or army zerg can quickly get under the wheels.
3cc with 8+(?) Barrack. difficult playstyle for Terran. If Zerg doesn’t have his solid worker count, Terran will simply overrun him in the long run when the push hits hard.

not true, or depends on your game plan.
if I play Pool/Hatch/Gas/ Roach Warren with 16 drones I must also do damage otherwise the game is over for me.

Sentry is the guy who thinks Zerg got buffed this season even though all three races received buffs and nerfs meaning there’s no way to know if any race is stronger or weaker compared to the others yet. It’s too early.

Zerg didn’t get buffed. Maybe in the original patch notes but 99% of the Zerg changes were so miniscule you don’t even notice them. Hydras still can’t micro against zealots. Carriers still a-move through corruptors even though they don’t target interceptors, especially if you have a few voids. The Ultra size “buff” made them even more retarded as they still get caught on everything and now are so small that splash damage affects them more. Hell, even the ghost snipe “nerf” isn’t even that much of a nerf as you’ll rarely ever get away from a snipe.

So we’re left with our best unit, the viper, getting nerfed; which trumps all other buffs. You can’t nerf our only good unit and expect the race to survive, no matter what minuscule buffs you give other units.

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Oh right the viper nerfs. That is tough for sure.

Also our creep spreads slower now because the creep tumours take a little longer right?

Ofc we can know because of the magnitude of how much things got nerfed/buffed.

Lets say if i buff every protoss unit by giving them +0.001 movement speed, do you really think its gonna matter?
What protoss buffs do we have exactly that is on the same magnitude as the hydra buff? And for reference: the hydra was already a good unit especially for lower league play.

That the patch is a net zerg buff is not even debatable but you are right the question is how exactly is the balance now and especially for which level of play. Because obviously many changes like vipers for example arent even noticeable for lower league players but obviously it hits hard for higher league players since you have a death sentence for only 1 unit now and not for 2. I mean zergs dont even start to use viper until masters and even then their viper usage is horrible and they would still only use vipers once every 20 matches because the average game length is still somewhat 11 minuteish. Whereas the hydra buff is massive since you already see hydras in like every game on every level of play.

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the viper was hugely nerfed so that is really big for Zerg players. I use vipers often and I am in gold/platinum league. So you’re totally wrong about lower level players. The viper is core for defeating a turtle player or other Zerg players.

Hydras are not very good in ZvP so they’re not often used and when they are the Protoss player usually wins with skytoss because the corruptors upgrades are too late.

Hydras needed buffs because they were not that great before. They were mediocre now hopefully they’ll be decent.

and the ultra changes were also needed because ultras were basically a trash or super niche unit. Hopefully they’re decent now.

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Hahahahaha :smiley: i cant even express how wrong that is. If i can see showtime losing to a zerg that has 6.5k mmr with only hydras then yes the unit is at least decent. Now its even stronger. Zerg whiners created the myth about hydras being bad. But guess what? They arent bad at all. They get played in every matchup and is useful in every of them and do their job pretty good.
If a unit is bad it gets rarely played or gets switched out like literally immediately like for example colossus. This unit is straight up garbage. Has only a niche use in 1 matchup of 3. Thats all. And its only used to survive bio terran until you can stabilze with ruptors. Even confirmed zerg whiners like lambo and scarlett agreed that the colossus is straight up garbage and guess what? they even had the balls to put hydras next to it :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: and some dumb zerg whiners actually believe them. it would be hilarious if it wasnt so sad actually. But at least those pro zerg whiners actually admit that hydras are already good at lower level meaning they already disagree with you.

Btw you failed to give me any example of a mechanic of protoss that got buffed at the same magnitude as the hydralisk buff. Yeah i agree with you that its hard to see if terran or zerg got buffed more but its clear as day that obviously protoss got buffed the least or in other words got rather nerfed lol. Even freaking stasis ward got nerfed smh. Protoss wasnt even a strong race before but got deleted from iem and further tournaments. Good job.

Ive seen enough of low level play to conclude that mostly bad people wont even use viper or wont use it effectivly. Please provide any replay where you actually get influenced by this nerf. Will the nerf be huge on your mmr or on the mmr below 5k? No, absolutely not. But hey, zerg whiners will play both sides: they never use viper because its too hard and if it gets nerfed then yes ofc suddenly everyone played viper. Sure.