I get to decide he’s not just as much as you get to decide he is. He has high base HP and a strong defensive knockback with no CD. I consider that to not be a class canon. Period!
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Definitely can see him being used alongside queen, RN tho I’m seeing a lot of Brigitte or Lucio with queen tho but only time will tell.
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I think it’ll be Zen Brig Queen comps or Ana Lucio Queen comps
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Why is Zen such a problem? He’s not hitting you with a hitscan oneshot from a mile away like Widow/Sojourn, and you can cleanse discord orb by just standing in cover for 2 seconds. If you walk out of cover against a Zen after that, he puts discord on you and all you need to do is find cover again. If you walk out of cover against a Widow, that’s just begging to get oneshot before you even know she’s aiming at you. I know which one I find more oppressive.
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I don’t get to decide, I get to go off of definitions, and you can’t describe what “glass cannon” means without describing Zenyatta.
“A character or unit with strong offensive power but weak defensive capabilities .”
According to Wiktionary, and I challenge you to find a definition that’s different. This is exactly Zenyatta.
Zenyatta’s defensive kick is non existent unless you’re pressed up against him. Have you ever even been hit by it? For 90% of the game or more, he’ll never use it as pushing up to you to use it will get him killed, and you have no reason to run to Zen to get kicked. Even Genji can stay far from it, and he’s a glorified melee class.
There’s the “weak” defensive capabilities the definition mentioned for you.
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I just went through yesterday OWL’s stream and Zen was in almost every game…so ?
Yeah, there are occasionally Brig Bap comps or Lucio Moira or whatever, but Zen is the very clear dominant support in almost every game
Which doesn’t matter at all? lol? GM emulates OWL and the Devs said they balance around GM and OWL.
If Zen is a must pick in OWL and top play and they complain about him, he will probably get nerfed.
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Yeah, I feel like aura heals synergize very well with her and for lucio you got more speed boost. Will be interesting to see over how teamcomps will look with her around. IMO that anti heal on ultimate desperately is making me wish for a support with a cleanse ability.
That’s how we got heroes like brig which feels bad to play in low ranks, and was considered still broken in higher ranks. They need to balance for all ranks IMO.
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Exactly! 
Which is untrue for a hero who has:
Higher base HP than the other supports
A knockback with no CD for anyone who gets close to him
His defensive capability is not weak when he has those two things.
Exactly, and luckily for him he is a long ranged hero so the only time someone is “pressed against him” is when someone is flanking him, which was his major weakness and is now not because he has more HP and a boop! Glad we agree!
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I don’t actually think Zen is too powerful. MAYBE a bit overtuned with the 225 HP buff, but that’s really not the issue.
I think the issue is, there isn’t good counterplay to discord. There is no cooldown you can play around. You can’t dodge it, and just “run out of the fight whenever it gets on you” means that you basically can’t ever enter any fights if you’re a tank… so that doesn’t work either.
People say, “Just kill Zen,” but if you’re a shorter ranged tank, that’s just not an option. So the only real answer to Zen is to pick SPECIFICALLY Winston (because Zen trashes D.va and Ball) and… yeah. That’s really it.
When there was two tanks and more shields, it was easier to deal with discord by cycling, and Zen’s lack of healing was more of a weakness. Now that there’s only 1 tank and the healing diff isn’t actually as much of a thing and he’s better at surviving dives, it sort of feels like there’s not much you can do about Discord.
So I don’t really think he’s SUPER OP or anything, I just think he’s extremely unhealthy because of a lack of solid counterplay.
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He used to be a glass cannon. Now he’s just a cannon…
The man has a lower TTK than most dps characters with 225 hp.
Brig was only “bad” in low ranks because they refused to play her correctly and have incorrect player perception of her, but I’m not getting into that whole conversation with you because it’s not worth my energy and the Devs already know it. And they’re the ones balancing the game.
Because hard counters are by their very nature bad design and something Blizzard has tried to avoid but having one hero hard counter half a roster is even worse because by existing he is saying, “you have 3 options: lose, swap to one of the 5 heroes that I allow to be viable, or quit” and a lot of people will pick option 3 as was demonstrated during GOATS.
Meanwhile lets talk about the theory that Snipers oppress because I want to know who is made nonviable by the existence of snipers. It certainly isn’t Tanks because I have seen run, and in many cases have run myself, about every combination of Tanks from double shield, to Dive, to anything with a Ball or Sigma when the Widow/Hanzo is a problem. It cannot be considered Supports because the same argument applies. Widow was in Dive (due to overbuffing her which had a lot of bad consequences) and you did not swap off of Zen or Lucio because of it nor did you change the Ana. Meanwhile in current OW you still pick your Supports based on the Tank comp (or a Mercy to buff some DPS) and what they have does not really change that so snipers are not holding back the Support lineup. This basically leaves us the DPS lineup where you still are largely fine so long as someone is contesting the Widow if she is the sniper or pushing into Hanzo if he is. Basically Snipers are strong but they do not oppress.
Discord Orb in its current state means half the Tank roster cannot function or get any value to the point where they are just an empty pick. This is a unique Tank problem in that DPS and Supports can typically work around Discord Orb. I am not sure what the solution is but it is certainly a problem.
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Someone mentioned a change where discord takes a few second to ramp up to its full % and I think that could be good because it makes it so he can’t just spam it from target to target
Maybe Tanks should get a passive resistance to Discord and anti-nade
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Sure, we don’t have to get into this. But let me just copy and paste my older comment so at least you know where I stand on this topic.
I actually kind of think the opposite, that him sticking it on a target and leaving it there is really a lot of the issue. Mostly because since there’s only 1 tank, it often ends up stuck on that one tank all game long since removing 25% of a tank’s health is inherently a higher number than any other role.
I think it just needs some sort of down time, where you have a window of time that you know he can’t use it on you. If it’s a CD on the ability, or a CD on the target, idk. But there’s just no good window of opportunity to play around it atm.
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That is a fair point, I think I agree with you on that!
I think nerfing how long it lasts out of LoS this patch was a good first step!
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I mean you can shift power from Discord Orb to Zen orbs, they have done that exact change before, but it would no doubt make him weaker overall which I am not sure is ideal. The problem is simply just I honestly do not even think Zen is that strong (he is strong but not as strong as he meta defining status suggests), but by existing he makes so many heroes not pickable that you pick him for that reason alone which is not healthy either way.
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At this point, just delete all supports and only keep mercy. So much easier and everyone will be happy.
now … “there are a couple support heroes that are fun and have some utility! NERF ANNA1 NURF ZEN!”
next balance patch … " 40 min tank/ dps que! this game sucks! why no one is playing support?!"
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